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[Feedback] Hit detection and TTK

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Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1825	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:02:00 - [1] - Quote Disclaimer: Peaceful and reasonable discussion, please post with logic or don't post at all. Hit detection has been greatly improved. Obviously. This somehow changed this game's feel, but I have some statements about it. First of all, I hope that everyone realizes that having a functional hit detection is not only a "good" thing, it is absolutely mandatory to even call this game a First Person Shooter. And, finally, this very essential core mechanic is working properly. So far, the result of a gunfight was decided by how many shots actually registered and I believe anyone can understand why it is bad to have a random factor determinating such an important thing, in a FPS. The game now is very close to count every single shot, we finally have a really solid and smooth gunfight experience. This is such an important step forward. You are fairly rewarded for actually hitting your target, now, you get the kills you deserve. Now. This obviously changed the general TTK and slightly affected weapons balance. First of all, it's not something "AR" related. The improved hit detection sensibly improved all the automatic and semiautomatic assault rifles and pistols: So we have different groups of weapon: Side notes: -I tried all the weapons before making this thread. -I don't know where to put the Laser Rifle. Group 1: Weapons with sensibly reduced TTK after the HD upgrade (high ROF automatic weapons): -Assault Rifle -Assault Scrambler Rifle -SMG Group 2: Weapons with slightly reduced TTK after the HD upgrade (medium ROF automatic or semiautomatic weapons): -Scrambler Rifle* -Burst Assault Rifle -Tactical Assault Rifle -Breach Assault Rifle -Scrambler Pistol The Scrambler Rifle is a tricky one, because it can easily OHK with charged shots. TTK for lethal charged shots hasn't changed. Group 3: Weapons with unaffected TTK after the HD upgrade (Low ROF):* -Plasma Cannon -Sniper Rifle -Mass Driver -Shotgun (they finally work now, but they are not gaining an unexpected advantage over other weapons) -Nova Knives -Flaylock Pistol -Forge Gun Weapons which represent exceptions: -HMG The high dispersion of the HMG mitigate the positive effects of the HD improvements on this weapon. That said, some players think that the general TTK is now too short and some think it is ok. However, it really depends on how CCP intended the average TTK to be. It might either be ok or too short, it's about CCP's design. The goal is to provide constructive feedback to help them making appropriate decisions: But if CCP feels that we need a slightly higher TTK, this could be tricky to do. Why? If we agree on a general HP buff (let's say +10% HP for everyone, as someone suggested in another thread), those weapons in the "Group 3" are going to be indirectly nerfed, while the "Group 1" weapons are going to keep some advantage on the "Group 2" weapons (the Forge Gun will be adjusted to bring it in line with the Vehicles changes, but this is a complete different story). Example: Just think of what would happen to snipers if our HP keep growing and growing. They will lose their purpose on the battlefield. I really don't like snipers, but they already suffered from the Armor update and now Heavies have more HP as well. Sniper rifles have been indirectly nerfed and that's a fact. The same will happen if we remove the 10% damage bonus that was given to all the weapons when the Skill Tree bonuses werre changed. These are my considerations about the last update. Do you feel like the TTK is too short? And if you do... How would you increase it without penalizing certain weapons (those sigle shot slow ROF weapons)? Keep in mind all the points I've brought here and feel free to post your constructive ideas about weapon balance and TTK. -Caldari Achura - One with the Universe -Tac AR Specialist "I load my gun with love instead of bullets"
Ferindar Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 70	Posted - 2013.11.06 09:55:00 - [2] - Quote Valid points, all of them. The one that resonates with me the most are the weapons in group 3. I've seen Logi and Assault suits pushing 1200 EHP now, and my Thales will only put a dent in that now if I get a headshot. The most powerful sniper rifle in the game can't snipe. Back to the topic, I do believe that many weapons in group 1, the full auto weapons need a damage cut, to be more in line with the HMG. The HMG's dispersion needs to be addressed fast. Sniper Rifles need to have better scopes, and more damage done. I shouldn't have to line up three headshots in a row in order to kill a medium suit. I believe that for now, suit HP and such is fine. Weapons themselves need a bit of tweaking. I believe the weapons that fall under the first category need to do a little less damage per shot, with their comparatively larger clips. The slow RoF weapons, excluding the Forge Gun and the Shotgun and Mass Driver* need a bit more of a damage boost. *I'd count the Mass Driver as exempt from the bonuses to Aim Assist, considering that to really aim a MD well, you have to compensate for the gravity of the projectile. And as far as I know, it doesn't receive any auto-aim benefits.
Jade Dragonis GRIM MARCH 260	Posted - 2013.11.06 10:07:00 - [3] - Quote I think that now shots are registering much better that the aim assit can be toned down a lot or evem turned off. Which means you as a player must make your shots count. Forged again? Your welcome.
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 230	Posted - 2013.11.06 10:34:00 - [4] - Quote I think the majority on the forums can agree that TTK is too short across the board. And the way I would balance it is: Reduce all weapon* damage by 20% Reduce the HP given by plates and extenders by 10% to 15% to make each point of HP mean more and other modules more viable Increase standard and advanced shield extender values to make them not awful Change the sentinel bonus to either A. a direct 3% increase to shield and armour per level B. 3% increase to shield and armour module efficacy per level (including shield regulators and such). *Excluding Forge gun, Plasma cannon, Swarms, AV nades, shotgun, Nova Knives and possibly Sniper rifle As for balancing the damage for the other weapons, I can't really say as of yet. The above changes, and the average players reaction to them, could cause previously UP weapons to become good again. 'Insert witty signature here'
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 1253	Posted - 2013.11.06 11:19:00 - [5] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: I think the majority on the forums can agree that TTK is too short across the board. And the way I would balance it is: Reduce all weapon* damage by 20% Reduce the HP given by plates and extenders by 10% to 15% to make each point of HP mean more and other modules more viable Increase standard and advanced shield extender values to make them not awful Change the sentinel bonus to either A. a direct 3% increase to shield and armour per level B. 3% increase to shield and armour module efficacy per level (including shield regulators and such). *Excluding Forge gun, Plasma cannon, Swarms, AV nades, shotgun, Nova Knives and possibly Sniper rifle As for balancing the damage for the other weapons, I can't really say as of yet. The above changes, and the average players reaction to them, could cause previously UP weapons to become good again. Just the weapon damage would be fine. Level 1 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. Fix PC lag please CCP.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 885	Posted - 2013.11.06 11:31:00 - [6] - Quote I would like to reduce weapon damage of 10% like it was before. "Just another piece of duct tape" Equality Event
Paran Tadec Ancient Exiles 1597	Posted - 2013.11.06 12:17:00 - [7] - Quote Just limit the damage mods. That's the real issue. Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp 400	Posted - 2013.11.06 12:38:00 - [8] - Quote I would put the Burst and Tactical AR in a different category. Their slow rof meant that their shots were always detected and damage applied. I never encountered any problems at all. I used both quite extensively and with the update nothing has changed for them. Therefore their comparative effectiveness has gone down dramatically. Often I would use my coveted Burst and took out so many reds they would end up ganging up on me to try to take down. I knew how to use it well - ducking and diving out of cover to take advantage of its impressive but short rof to deal more damage than my opponent. Now I just get vaporised before my 3rd salvo and no amount of tanking will solve it. After months of practice I'm forced to put it down and use a GEK. Makes me wonder if the Combat Rifle will actually be worth it I try to tell myself that the better damage will compensate but will it? Oh well, I live in hope "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 116	Posted - 2013.11.06 13:12:00 - [9] - Quote shaman oga wrote: I would like to reduce weapon damage of 10% like it was before. No. Just read the text. The actual problem is that Group 1 weapon has been greatly Buffed by the Hit Detection. While Group 2 was lightly buffed. And Group 3 didn't changed. So why group 3 should be inderictly nerfed and why Group 1 will keep dominate others group ??? So like the author said. We can't change eHp or damage for all weapons at the same time. Each type of weapon should be reviewed one by one.
Lightning Bolt2 From The Mist 314	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:46:00 - [10] - Quote Keri Starlight wrote: Group 1: Weapons with sensibly reduced TTK after the HD upgrade (high ROF automatic weapons): -Assault Rifle -Assault Scrambler Rifle -SMG Group 2: Weapons with slightly reduced TTK after the HD upgrade (medium ROF automatic or semiautomatic weapons): -Scrambler Rifle* -Burst Assault Rifle -Tactical Assault Rifle -Breach Assault Rifle -Scrambler Pistol I feel all in group 1 and all but the scram pistol&breach AR in group 2 need to lose the 10% DMG buff that was added when hit detection was awful! that would be a good start to balancing the weapons, (see my thread on removing the 10% buff) remember, when you first see lightning play in a open field! from the non-existent mist! forum warrior lvl: pathetic!

Cosgar ParagonX 7412	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:54:00 - [11] - Quote Nerfing and weapon imbalance issues have always existed, but everyone just pretends to ignore the elephant in the room. Some weapons are good on all tiers while others are only good at prototype. That's as big of an issue as the insanely short TTK. Remove the blanket 10% and individually buff what needs to be buffed and/or nerf what needs to be nerfed. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Spartan MK420 sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 7	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:08:00 - [12] - Quote I like your idea. +10% ehp per suit is nice, but it has a flaw. Scouts would receive a bonus not even noticeable, as heavies would receive a larger boost equivalent to an extra module. So maybe a non variable buff would suffice, but then again it could cause alot of balancing problems. So in conclusion.... The release of shield resistance modules, and armor resistance modules. (would like to see it limited to 1 per suit, such as the after burner on dropships, including the other module. So that you could only have one in total equipped, not 1 of each on the same suit) Or perhaps a purchasable skill with similar effects, but it would need to cost you an arm and leg in sp.
Keri Starlight 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 1838	Posted - 2013.11.07 09:53:00 - [13] - Quote Jade Dragonis wrote: I think that now shots are registering much better that the aim assit can be toned down a lot or evem turned off. Which means you as a player must make your shots count. I'm not posting my personal opinions about Aim Assist here, but I'm sure that CCP implemented it to make the game smoother and more enjoyable rather than to balance weaponry or general TTK (at least that's what they told us). I would like Aim Assist to stay, but I wouldn't mind a slight TTK increase. I don't feel like it's absolutely necessary either, but I do agree that DUST might benefit from a slightly higher TTK because of its unique mechanics (character growth, modules, tier system, etc...). -Caldari Achura - One with the Universe -Tac AR Specialist "I load my gun with love instead of bullets"


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