DUST Search - Shield and armor

Eris Ernaga wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

So, let's have a look at the numbers this gives us.
Assuming new complex shields are 99 HP:

Caldari Assault, new shields

Duvolle Assault Rifle
M209 Assault Submachine Gun
Core Locus Grenade

Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Damage Modifier

Complex Shield Regulator
Complex Shield Regulator
Complex CPU Upgrade

X-3 Quantum Nanohive

With skills and the Caldari assault bonus, each shield extender gives 120 HP (99*1.10*1.10). We have three of these, so 360 HP. The base shields are 262 (with skills), the normal shield delay with this fitting is 2.76/4.41 and the normal recharge rate is 31.25 HP/s.

We end up with 360+262 = 622 shield HP. This does, however, penalise the shield recharge and shield delay by ~30%.

(2.76/4.41*1.10*1.10*1.10) = 3.67/5.86 seconds shield recharge delay.
(31.25*0.90*0.90*0.90) = 22.78 shield HP/s when recharging.

There is no movement penalty, so it moves at 5/7.35.

Let's look at a comparable Gallente assault.

GEK-38 Assault Rifle
Submachine Gun
M1 Locus Grenade

Enhanced Light Damage Modifier
Enhanced Light Damage Modifier
Complex Light Damage Modifier

Complex Armour Repairer
Complex Armour Repairer
Enhanced Armour Plates
Enhanced Armour Plates

X-3 Quantum Nanohive

The weapons had to be downgraded because otherwise they would not fit. This is, however, compensated for by the better damage modifiers, so we can consider that department approximately equal (though it still loses out on the grenades and SMG).

This gets 532 armour and 12.5 HP/s regen, albeit with no delay. The movement speed is 4.64/6.82.

Let's compare this to the shield tanked suit.

HP: 622 vs 532 = Shields win handily
Regen: 22.78 vs 12.5 = Shields win with almost twice the regen
Recharge delay: Armour wins.
Speed: 5/7.35 vs 4.64/6.82 = Shields win.

Additionally, when comparing these fittings it should be noted that the Gallente assault uses an inferior grenade and an inferior SMG. The damage gap from the GEK-38 to the Duvolle is compensated for by the damage mods.

I suspect the natural response to this is to think that you can fit the Gallente assault better so that it isn't outclassed - if you think that, I invite you to provide an example where it is not inferior in most aspects.

Having looked at these numbers, I strongly disagree with your idea. This would not be balanced and would catapult shields back to the point where it is the de-facto superior tank. I agree that lower tier shield extenders could scale better, but what you have suggested here does not work and is fundamentally flawed as a suggestion that would homogenise the tank types at best and break the balance completely at worst.

Dude you can't crunch numbers for something that doesn't even exist yet, I found all your calculations pointless and a hilarious waste of time. Like I said the numbers could be up for debate and how much the penalty is for the modules could also be discussed. Lastly not every suit has top powergrid, electronics, and core skills take in mind these new modules would have higher fitting requirements meaning they'd be harder to fit. Lastly not everyone uses your suggested fitting it is kind of of ridiculous that you based this entire thing on what you personally would fit. Lastly did you take in delay times like I said would be the penalty for equipping this module?

Could be something like:

basic: -10% shield recharge delay
enhanced -15% shield recharge delay
complex -20% shield recharge delay


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Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4545	Posted - 2013.11.02 20:00:00 - [1] - Quote So, let's have a look at the numbers this gives us. Assuming new complex shields are 99 HP: Caldari Assault, new shields Duvolle Assault Rifle M209 Assault Submachine Gun Core Locus Grenade Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Damage Modifier Complex Shield Regulator Complex Shield Regulator Complex CPU Upgrade X-3 Quantum Nanohive With skills and the Caldari assault bonus, each shield extender gives 120 HP (991.101.10). We have three of these, so 360 HP. The base shields are 262 (with skills), the normal shield delay with this fitting is 2.76/4.41 and the normal recharge rate is 31.25 HP/s. We end up with 360+262 = 622 shield HP. This does, however, penalise the shield recharge and shield delay by ~30%. (2.76/4.411.101.101.10) = 3.67/5.86 seconds shield recharge delay. (31.250.900.900.90) = 22.78 shield HP/s when recharging. There is no movement penalty, so it moves at 5/7.35. Let's look at a comparable Gallente assault. GEK-38 Assault Rifle Submachine Gun M1 Locus Grenade Enhanced Light Damage Modifier Enhanced Light Damage Modifier Complex Light Damage Modifier Complex Armour Repairer Complex Armour Repairer Enhanced Armour Plates Enhanced Armour Plates X-3 Quantum Nanohive The weapons had to be downgraded because otherwise they would not fit. This is, however, compensated for by the better damage modifiers, so we can consider that department approximately equal (though it still loses out on the grenades and SMG). This gets 532 armour and 12.5 HP/s regen, albeit with no delay. The movement speed is 4.64/6.82. Let's compare this to the shield tanked suit. HP: 622 vs 532 = Shields win handily Regen: 22.78 vs 12.5 = Shields win with almost twice the regen Recharge delay: Armour wins. Speed: 5/7.35 vs 4.64/6.82 = Shields win. Additionally, when comparing these fittings it should be noted that the Gallente assault uses an inferior grenade and an inferior SMG. The damage gap from the GEK-38 to the Duvolle is compensated for by the damage mods. I suspect the natural response to this is to think that you can fit the Gallente assault better so that it isn't outclassed - if you think that, I invite you to provide an example where it is not inferior in most aspects. Having looked at these numbers, I strongly disagree with your idea. This would not be balanced and would catapult shields back to the point where it is the de-facto superior tank. I agree that lower tier shield extenders could scale better, but what you have suggested here does not work and is fundamentally flawed as a suggestion that would homogenise the tank types at best and break the balance completely at worst. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4554	Posted - 2013.11.03 10:29:00 - [2] - Quote Eris Ernaga wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: So, let's have a look at the numbers this gives us. Assuming new complex shields are 99 HP: Caldari Assault, new shields Duvolle Assault Rifle M209 Assault Submachine Gun Core Locus Grenade Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Damage Modifier Complex Shield Regulator Complex Shield Regulator Complex CPU Upgrade X-3 Quantum Nanohive With skills and the Caldari assault bonus, each shield extender gives 120 HP (991.101.10). We have three of these, so 360 HP. The base shields are 262 (with skills), the normal shield delay with this fitting is 2.76/4.41 and the normal recharge rate is 31.25 HP/s. We end up with 360+262 = 622 shield HP. This does, however, penalise the shield recharge and shield delay by ~30%. (2.76/4.411.101.101.10) = 3.67/5.86 seconds shield recharge delay. (31.250.900.900.90) = 22.78 shield HP/s when recharging. There is no movement penalty, so it moves at 5/7.35. Let's look at a comparable Gallente assault. GEK-38 Assault Rifle Submachine Gun M1 Locus Grenade Enhanced Light Damage Modifier Enhanced Light Damage Modifier Complex Light Damage Modifier Complex Armour Repairer Complex Armour Repairer Enhanced Armour Plates Enhanced Armour Plates X-3 Quantum Nanohive The weapons had to be downgraded because otherwise they would not fit. This is, however, compensated for by the better damage modifiers, so we can consider that department approximately equal (though it still loses out on the grenades and SMG). This gets 532 armour and 12.5 HP/s regen, albeit with no delay. The movement speed is 4.64/6.82. Let's compare this to the shield tanked suit. HP: 622 vs 532 = Shields win handily Regen: 22.78 vs 12.5 = Shields win with almost twice the regen Recharge delay: Armour wins. Speed: 5/7.35 vs 4.64/6.82 = Shields win. Additionally, when comparing these fittings it should be noted that the Gallente assault uses an inferior grenade and an inferior SMG. The damage gap from the GEK-38 to the Duvolle is compensated for by the damage mods. I suspect the natural response to this is to think that you can fit the Gallente assault better so that it isn't outclassed - if you think that, I invite you to provide an example where it is not inferior in most aspects. Having looked at these numbers, I strongly disagree with your idea. This would not be balanced and would catapult shields back to the point where it is the de-facto superior tank. I agree that lower tier shield extenders could scale better, but what you have suggested here does not work and is fundamentally flawed as a suggestion that would homogenise the tank types at best and break the balance completely at worst. Dude you can't crunch numbers for something that doesn't even exist yet, I found all your calculations pointless and a hilarious waste of time. Like I said the numbers could be up for debate and how much the penalty is for the modules could also be discussed. Lastly not every suit has top powergrid, electronics, and core skills take in mind these new modules would have higher fitting requirements meaning they'd be harder to fit. Lastly not everyone uses your suggested fitting it is kind of of ridiculous that you based this entire thing on what you personally would fit. Lastly did you take in delay times like I said would be the penalty for equipping this module? Could be something like: basic: -10% shield recharge delay enhanced -15% shield recharge delay complex -20% shield recharge delay Perhaps if you bothered reading the post you would see that I covered all of your points. The Caldari assault suit is significantly easier to fit. Unless the fitting penalties were massively high (in which case you could simply downgrade the gun) the Gallente assault would already be much harder to fit. In this case it requires perfect skills. If you had read my post you would see that I did account for delay times, yes. If you would like to suggest a fitting for the Gallente assault there that yields superior tank to the Caldari assault then go ahead, but until you can do that those numbers would work perfectly well. Even in the case of your suggested increased penalties the shield tank would still be superior. Of course armour plates give high HP. They also give a movement penalty and require you to fit repairers (which need fitting resources and a fitting slot). Shields can simply stack shield extenders. Sure, you can stack plates as well, but then you move like a snail and after one engagement you are liable to die horribly. The high HP of armour plates comes at the cost of significant tradeoffs. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4554	Posted - 2013.11.03 10:33:00 - [3] - Quote Eris Ernaga wrote: Also not everyone runs Caldari and Gallente for shield and armor my Minmitar dual tanks and also gets a nice +5 to armor repair through it's logistic bonus. Also don't forget repair tools and repair nano hives can be used to repair the users and other players armor, people always forget to factor this in. Also your not even mentioning how that Gallente suit has more damage mods so it's getting a damage buff. Also based on armor regen times you might not be to far behind on armor regen considering recharge time is instant while shields will take 4 - 5 seconds to start back up considering the penalty. I mentioned those. Triage hives and repair tools require you to bring logistics. If you are actively using a repair tool, you cannot shoot. That effectively takes a gun off the field. Triage hives have require a lot of fitting resources, are stationary, can be destroyed, and are limited. All of those are trade-offs. The armour suit has to downgrade its weapon so it can fit everything, making the damage output approximately equal. Low slot non-armour modules take up significantly less fitting resources than damage mods and also have fitting mods, so it is easier to fit a shield tank. The shield recharge is almost twice the armour recharge. Considering that the delay is all of a few seconds, the armour tanker would be overtaken by regen in under ten seconds. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4661	Posted - 2013.11.06 19:50:00 - [4] - Quote Eris Ernaga wrote: Nyx Linx wrote: I must say their should be more shield mods. Adding diversity never hurts it only increases the complexity. It hurts when the new items for 'diversity' are vastly superior to the old ones. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution