DUST Search - [Request] Abolish WP for kils

KalOfTheRathi wrote:

Gelhad Thremyr wrote:

-- snip useless babble and an insult --

Hah! You want lazy programmers contact CCP/Shanghai. An array of integers will not convey the information of an object oriented game. The client side is all C++ in UnReal Engine 3(something). The server is Ruby and C++. Passing an array of integers will indicate what exactly? Nothing of consequence.

Get real. Modern game play is developed under OOP methods. They are the current tool set and the array of integers will be limiting in a game with this many objects cluttered about. Not to mention that our friends at CCP/Shanghai are using Floats aka Reals.

The visual stuff you see on the screen has Nothing to do with the server. All of that is C++ UnReal client code and generates Zero network traffic. A classic mistake by a beginning programmer is not realizing where the code is actually running. Typical, maybe CCP/Shanghai is hiring.

The entire concept of spreading out 50 WP to more than two players is a waste of resources. Go earn another 50 WP. That is how every other game does it. Nobody balances out the WP (XP, SP or whatever) so the QQ Kittens can gain 12WP their precious Militia Assault Rifle. DUST pays 50 and 25 for a Kill and an Assist. Hacking one objective is worth 100 WP. Play the game and quit the QQ.

A good player doesn't need any of this. Low skilled players are not supported in DUST. There is no matchmaking to keep low level players with junk gear from getting pub stomped by Full Proto Squads. The Battle Academy is way too limited and the next match after the academy has exactly the same odds of winding up with that Proto Squad as any match afterwards. Mid-level players are encouraged to spend AUR and buy gear above their SP/Skill level.

Either way, this ain't gonna happen. Regardless of the method or the possible programming solutions.

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Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 835	Posted - 2013.09.29 19:09:00 - [1] - Quote Instead of giving WP for kills, which currently rewards the person who fires the last shot, WP should be earned based upon the amount of damage you dealt to a clone in the 10 seconds leading up to its death. This would have two fringe benefits: 1) It would eliminate the idea of kill stealing and simply reward the players who helped in the destruction of a clone. 2) People who are dealing higher damage either because of headshots or taking the rist of using damage mods instead of shield modules, would be rewarded in a way that more closely supports the risk/reward ratio the game is constantly asking us to flirt with. I have thought of two different ways to set up the scoring under this system both of which would apply to suits and vehicles thus raising the possible rewards for destroying higher level gear thus increasing the risk/reward ratio for both vehicle users and people willing to bring high tier gear into matches. Scheme 1: % damage to WP model Damage done to a clone in the 10 seconds leading up to its death would recieve .1damage dealt in wp. This would mean that solo killing a 500hp medium suit would be worth 50wp. A 7000hp tank would be worth 700wp. This would have a couple of positive effects as well as one potential downside that I can see. On the plus side tankers would get much better rewards for killing other tanks, this might make running tanks more profitable. Additionally since tankers typically do all the damage when they kill someone they would probably not see a reduction in WP from infantry kills. Infantry would be much more heavily rewarded for killing heavier, higher tier suits with proto heavies providing pretty nice WP payouts. KIlling tanks would laos have really nice rewards since a single tank kill would provide more WP then an average player makes in a typical game now. The downside of this scheme is that light suits, which can be a major factor on the battlefield (and hopefully will be a larger one in the future) are worth relatively few wp thanks to their low hp values. So even though that scout shotgunned half your squad he is not going to be worth much to kill, this seems like an issue to me. A solution to this is that all suits are assigned a base value of 30wp and any suit with less than 300 hp (are there even any of these?) would assume a maximum of 30 wp to be distributed. Scheme 2: % damage vs isk value of suit to WP model* Damage done to a clone in the 10 seconds leading up to its death would recieve wp based upon the following formula: loadout cost * % damage dealt * .002. Just for an example, if you did 250 damage to a suit with 500 hp (and was then killed) that was worth 30,000isk you would get 30 wp (30,000 * .5 * .002 = 30). A 150,000isk proto suit that you similarly do 50% of the max damage to prior to it getting killed would reward you with 150wp. Once again everyone would benefit from getting more wp for killing higher tier gear. Logis would be especially valuable kills since their suits are typically much higher isk value due to all the equipment they carry. Vehicles would similarly be worth a bundle since a 1,000,000 isk tank would be worth 2,000 wp for a solo kill. While this scheme does deal with the issues created by the first scheme (scouts would be valuable kills especially at proto level) it does create some issues of its own. The first of these issues is that free suits would be worth absolutely nothing. To deal with this a base value for a suit would be based upon isk value of equivalent items, so a dragonfly scout suits value would be the same as a basic light galente frame's value, the same would have to be true for AUR items. The second problem here is that OB's could become extremely frequent under this scheme. To deal with this the wp value needed for OBs will have to be raised. CCP would have to do some testing to see what reasonable values would be based upon an average squad. Personally I like scheme number two more since it really boosts the risk/reward ratio for using higher tier gear/vehicles. Sure you can kill more but you're also going to make your self a huge target when you pull out your Falchion, everyone is going to be trying to cash in on the massive wp reward your tank is worth. Thoughts? Ideas?
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 10	Posted - 2013.09.29 19:39:00 - [2] - Quote I'm iffy on this, but I always figured if there was scaled wp for kills it would be (% of damage + meta level).5 for infantry so solo killing a suit with a basic meta 1 and advanced meta 2 and everything else mlt would be 51.5 wp but if they had several upgraded meta 10 it would be 55wp Or you deal 50% damage to a mlt suit 25 wp
Beforcial REAPERS REPUBLIC 21	Posted - 2013.09.30 03:18:00 - [3] - Quote Like the OP's idea, it's a fair reward system.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 771	Posted - 2013.09.30 03:50:00 - [4] - Quote Not gonna happen. Sorry. Let's look at it from a programming standpoint. Each round from every weapon must be tracked. Good that needs to be done anyway. However, the damage will have to tracked back to the shooter. Each shooter. Now when the victim dies the WP must be parceled out. The total damage is the basis and [u[Each Weapon[/u] must be referenced to determine the amount of damage dealt. Once we have that then each Merc will get WP based on: Total Damage = X; My Damage = Y; My WP = WP(Y/X); That is a hassle when the system has trouble keeping track of what is happening now. The player client and CCP server UI has troubles keeping in sync. Now we add a significant amount of effort to track each and every point of damage. What happens when the Red is using an Armor Repair Hive? Or has a Logi providing constant Repair? Right now, they has something like the following: while ( Weapon ) { Merc->Health->Value -= Weapon->Rounds->Damage; /* separate values for shield and armor of course / Merc->Damage->Last Shooter = Merc->Damage->Shooter; Merc->Damage->Shooter = Weapon->Owner; } With branching or exit logic if ( Merc->Health <= Zero ) { Death } Quick simple and after the health is restored: If( Merc->HP == Merc->HP_MAX ) { Merc->Damage->Last Shooter = Merc->Damage->Shooter = NULL } Simple and quick. And for what purpose? To spread out 50 WP? Seriously, go kill his buddy. Get your own 50 WP. That is my default method as I spent decades doing such. For money.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6308	Posted - 2013.09.30 04:09:00 - [5] - Quote Kills are inherently useful to the team, even if its just getting the last shot on a guy with 0 shields and 1 armor left; its still eliminating a threat, and thus deserves rewards. What needs to happen is that assists should give WP proportional to the damage dealt.
Gelhad Thremyr QcGOLD 1	Posted - 2013.09.30 04:21:00 - [6] - Quote Use the meta level instead of isk value, then free stuff gets counted correctly ... love the idea that killing proto suit gets Morte rewarding since some corp run on them all the Time (they h+óve budget...) And they make the game hard for us mid level player...You should delta value your total meta level vs killed meta level. If You use high end gear to shred noobs you should get disadvantaged in public games. Comparable meta level gear should get fair sp reward. You Will se more proto vs proto combat !
Gelhad Thremyr QcGOLD 1	Posted - 2013.09.30 04:31:00 - [7] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Not gonna happen. Sorry. Let's look at it from a programming standpoint. Each round from every weapon must be tracked. Good that needs to be done anyway. However, the damage will have to tracked back to the shooter. Each shooter. Now when the victim dies the WP must be parceled out. The total damage is the basis and [u[Each Weapon[/u] must be referenced to determine the amount of damage dealt. Once we have that then each Merc will get WP based on: Total Damage = X; My Damage = Y; My WP = WP(Y/X); That is a hassle when the system has trouble keeping track of what is happening now. The player client and CCP server UI has troubles keeping in sync. Now we add a significant amount of effort to track each and every point of damage. What happens when the Red is using an Armor Repair Hive? Or has a Logi providing constant Repair? Right now, they has something like the following: while ( Weapon ) { Merc->Health->Value -= Weapon->Rounds->Damage; /* separate values for shield and armor of course / Merc->Damage->Last Shooter = Merc->Damage->Shooter; Merc->Damage->Shooter = Weapon->Owner; } With branching or exit logic if ( Merc->Health <= Zero ) { Death } Quick simple and after the health is restored: If( Merc->HP == Merc->HP_MAX ) { Merc->Damage->Last Shooter = Merc->Damage->Shooter = NULL } Simple and quick. And for what purpose? To spread out 50 WP? Seriously, go kill his buddy. Get your own 50 WP. That is my default method as I spent decades doing such. For money. Arrays of integer values are cheap to store and send on the network when only changed values are sent over the network, sorry to say this but if you know about programming and network your answer was the answer of a lazy programmer at best. Most network engine already do this stuff to minimise traffic and 32 times an int for damage tracking is less value than a lot of visual stuff you see on the screen. The above idea is an elegant one and also very appealing for game balancing the players habit. It will have a positive impact on player retention for entry level player to mid player. Might **** long time players but heck they are the ones always whinning anyway....
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 338	Posted - 2013.09.30 04:39:00 - [8] - Quote This is only an issue with heavies. It takes a good deal longer for a heavy to rep up from say 5 of 900hp than a caldari assault and as such someone dealing damage to that heavy as much as 5 minutes ago would have contributed to his death.
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 27	Posted - 2013.09.30 06:03:00 - [9] - Quote I think the current system is just fine. % WP pay out scenario: You are fighting an enemy and both of you are down to 10% health. You both drop behind cover as one of your team mates runs by ignoring him due to not feeling the points are worth it. He reps faster than you and is able to finish you off. Current WP pay out scenario: You are fighting an enemy and both of you are down to 10% health. You both drop behind cover as one of your team finishes him off awarding you 25 points and giving you time to repair. The current system encourages team play even if it is only by forcing team mates to battle over the extra 25 points and a tick on your kill count. Yes its annoying at times having kills stolen but the free for all that would be left by a % based system would be pretty ugly imho.
ADAM-OF-EVE Svartur Bjorn Neo Terra Empire 377	Posted - 2013.09.30 06:14:00 - [10] - Quote no more stealing tank kills with full crew with my smg :(

KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 774	Posted - 2013.10.01 00:58:00 - [11] - Quote Gelhad Thremyr wrote: -- snip useless babble and an insult -- Hah! You want lazy programmers contact CCP/Shanghai. An array of integers will not convey the information of an object oriented game. The client side is all C++ in UnReal Engine 3(something). The server is Ruby and C++. Passing an array of integers will indicate what exactly? Nothing of consequence. Get real. Modern game play is developed under OOP methods. They are the current tool set and the array of integers will be limiting in a game with this many objects cluttered about. Not to mention that our friends at CCP/Shanghai are using Floats aka Reals. The visual stuff you see on the screen has Nothing to do with the server. All of that is C++ UnReal client code and generates Zero network traffic. A classic mistake by a beginning programmer is not realizing where the code is actually running. Typical, maybe CCP/Shanghai is hiring. The entire concept of spreading out 50 WP to more than two players is a waste of resources. Go earn another 50 WP. That is how every other game does it. Nobody balances out the WP (XP, SP or whatever) so the QQ Kittens can gain 12WP their precious Militia Assault Rifle. DUST pays 50 and 25 for a Kill and an Assist. Hacking one objective is worth 100 WP. Play the game and quit the QQ. A good player doesn't need any of this. Low skilled players are not supported in DUST. There is no matchmaking to keep low level players with junk gear from getting pub stomped by Full Proto Squads. The Battle Academy is way too limited and the next match after the academy has exactly the same odds of winding up with that Proto Squad as any match afterwards. Mid-level players are encouraged to spend AUR and buy gear above their SP/Skill level. Either way, this ain't gonna happen. Regardless of the method or the possible programming solutions.
Skipper Jones KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Public Disorder. 822	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:14:00 - [12] - Quote Why is it that everyone has a huge problem with "kill steals" I understand WP leads to Rewards, but that doesn't change the fact that there will still be the person that gets the lower end of the kill. Someone will get more WPs than the other. What if a sniper hits a Caldari Logi to armor. The Cal Logi runs to cover with 160 armor, then gets finished of by another assault. Obviously the sniper didn't get the kill, therefore shouldn't get awarded for it. It will lead to someone doing 51% by one guy and him getting awarded for just weakening him. Changes should only be made when new equipment comes out. The ASSIST should be based off of damage done, but the kill shouldn't. 25-45 WPs for assist, but the final shot should definitely get 50 WP.
Skipper Jones KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Public Disorder. 822	Posted - 2013.10.01 01:22:00 - [13] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: no more stealing tank kills with full crew with my smg :( Come back when you get rage mail for killing a Falchion with a Scrambler Rifle
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 840	Posted - 2013.10.01 03:57:00 - [14] - Quote Clearly I mispoke in the first few lines of my OP. I really don't have any problem with kill stealing since that just means teams are focusing fire. What I have an issue with is kills being used as a metric for measuring merc value when often it only indicates who shot last not efficiency. Further my suggestions were intended as a way of promoting squads working together to get kills focusing fire and sharing in the rewards more equitably. With these changes in place corps and players would rank themselves using wp/death or isk destroyed/isk lost ratios all of which are more telling about overall player contributions to the teams success than simple KDR.
Torneido Achura Suicidal Business Inc. 44	Posted - 2013.10.01 10:29:00 - [15] - Quote Lore wise this would be great; killing a tanked redberry should mean even more than just killed and knowing he lost tons of ISK, we should also get rewarded more appropriately. Maybe 5% of damage dealt to subject (redberry) Hp should be turned to WPs and gifted to the killer, and assists should be also threated the same; but only after the kill. That way CCP wouldnGÇÖt worry about we progressing to fast, and stats wise: (Dropsuit with)-+ K Hp means 25 WP & (Vehicle with) 10K Hp means 500 WP There's already much more interest in killing over completing objectives, so this would be a buff to the latest.
Gelhad Thremyr QcGOLD 2	Posted - 2013.10.02 03:59:00 - [16] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Gelhad Thremyr wrote: -- snip useless babble and an insult -- Hah! You want lazy programmers contact CCP/Shanghai. An array of integers will not convey the information of an object oriented game. The client side is all C++ in UnReal Engine 3(something). The server is Ruby and C++. Passing an array of integers will indicate what exactly? Nothing of consequence. Get real. Modern game play is developed under OOP methods. They are the current tool set and the array of integers will be limiting in a game with this many objects cluttered about. Not to mention that our friends at CCP/Shanghai are using Floats aka Reals. The visual stuff you see on the screen has Nothing to do with the server. All of that is C++ UnReal client code and generates Zero network traffic. A classic mistake by a beginning programmer is not realizing where the code is actually running. Typical, maybe CCP/Shanghai is hiring. The entire concept of spreading out 50 WP to more than two players is a waste of resources. Go earn another 50 WP. That is how every other game does it. Nobody balances out the WP (XP, SP or whatever) so the QQ Kittens can gain 12WP their precious Militia Assault Rifle. DUST pays 50 and 25 for a Kill and an Assist. Hacking one objective is worth 100 WP. Play the game and quit the QQ. A good player doesn't need any of this. Low skilled players are not supported in DUST. There is no matchmaking to keep low level players with junk gear from getting pub stomped by Full Proto Squads. The Battle Academy is way too limited and the next match after the academy has exactly the same odds of winding up with that Proto Squad as any match afterwards. Mid-level players are encouraged to spend AUR and buy gear above their SP/Skill level. Either way, this ain't gonna happen. Regardless of the method or the possible programming solutions. Your response is rather unimpressive programming wise nobody send oo objects over the network efficiently, they send and array of data that gets deserialised. These arrays contains only values that have changed, check for example raknet which does it pretty good... If ccp are lazy at best like you say ,and you know so much about their tech... why dont you program a game better than this one...oh wait...you cant, even if you are a professionnal game programmer and know the internal enough of the unreal engine, you should know better than to respond that kind of BS. The rest of your post is a valid opinion like any, in any cases they have tracking data and they are learning their thing,respect the fact that this company transitionned from an home made engine in iron python to a full AAA console environment,and its not an easy task to set up things and and transition your team toward leading industry tech. If you know what i mean and i hope so,lets just say that aside from balancing ccp deserves a thumbs up for the effort we enjoy playing their games !
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 137	Posted - 2013.10.02 04:44:00 - [17] - Quote Programming this wouldn't be that hard. Assists are already being tracked, you just need to track the damage dealt by anyone assisting. The Devs have mentioned in the past that they want to do something along these lines. The way I would do it is to assign a number of warpoints for a kill, say 100. Let 25 of those points be for the killing blow. A bonus 10 if you kill with a headshot (cause CCP wants that). The rest of the points should be divided amongst those that dealt damage proportional to the damage they dealt. The duration of this should be the same as the current assist duration. Perhaps give an extra 5 points to anyone assisting. Taking into account the total damage done or meta level of the victim or anything like that seems to be a little too complicated to me.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 843	Posted - 2013.10.03 00:38:00 - [18] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Programming this wouldn't be that hard. Assists are already being tracked, you just need to track the damage dealt by anyone assisting. The Devs have mentioned in the past that they want to do something along these lines. The way I would do it is to assign a number of warpoints for a kill, say 100. Let 25 of those points be for the killing blow. A bonus 10 if you kill with a headshot (cause CCP wants that). The rest of the points should be divided amongst those that dealt damage proportional to the damage they dealt. The duration of this should be the same as the current assist duration. Perhaps give an extra 5 points to anyone assisting. Taking into account the total damage done or meta level of the victim or anything like that seems to be a little too complicated to me. Not a bad idea at all, but I feel like your way to deal with this fails to increase incentives for new players, or players willing to die many times to take on a much tougher to kill opponent. This element of the plans where wp rewards are based upon total hp, meta level, or even isk value serves to increase the risk reward ratio in the game. Asking people to balance making a beastly vs other players desire to hunt them down and kill them for their juicy tears would really add some additional depth that, while complicated is really something that intrigues me.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 843	Posted - 2013.10.03 00:41:00 - [19] - Quote Gelhad Thremyr wrote: ccp deserves a thumbs up for the effort we enjoy playing their games ! Agreed.


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