Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
587
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 07:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Anyone else find this ridiculous? I'm literally walking around the whole map, everyone on my team are like little dots far away, and out of no where "You have been scanned". Really? Do I seriously have to walk 201+meters around that one guy who can just do a 1 second 360 no scope with the active scanner and scan an entire map module?
CCP, have one of your dev stand somewhere on dev island, and have another guy stand 200 meters away on the other side of dev island and let me know if you can hear him yelling. |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
1041
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 07:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
did it ever occur to u that profile dampeners exist? |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
587
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 07:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Was I talking about dampeners? |
Lt Royal
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1867
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 08:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
If that one guy is managing to scan you at 200 meters, good for him considering the only scanner that does 200m is the Prototype Flux Active Scanner meaning theyGÇÖve put a lot of SP into it.
As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
Each level in Active Scanners have their own level of scan precision; meaning they can only scan certain suits within that dB range: Basic - 46 dB Advanced - 36 dB Prototype - 28 dB Focused Prototype - 15 dB As you can see the basic scanner won't be able to scan a scout suit as itGÇÖs dB profile range isn't within the scanners dB range: A 46dB scanner cannot acquire something that has a 45 dB scan profile.
If you are running in a medium suit and looking not be be scanned, this means your going to need to gain a 17.5% reduction to your profile. One way to do this is acquiring level 5 in Profile Dampening and fitting a Complex Profile Dampener, this mean you now be unscannable to any form of advanced scanners. However, if they are indeed using a prototype scanner youGÇÖll be sacrificing too much tank to be unscannable, if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!
Anyway I hope all that helped to understand Active Scanners. |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
587
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 08:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
The thing is, 200m is way too much, you can stand in the center of the largest map module we have and scan the entire area with a quick 360. I'm not even gonna begin to talk about how this game became Scan514 because unless you invest to ADV/PRO scanners/dampeners, you'll be lit up like a christmas tree. If you run into the guy I did, he literally just sat on the outskirts of the map and scanned over and over revealing my entire team. If you dont see how this is problem, then sorry you dont play shooters enough.
Dampeners went from useful, to required. |
Lt Royal
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1867
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 08:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agreed, but you have to find a way to adapt to times changing because moaning on here isn't going to get things changed quickly enough and get a scanner yourself as its the only real practical way to counter it. It only costs 205,200 SP to get the advanced scanner and its definitely worth it.
Being scanned has never been a real problem for me, but IGÇÖm considering skilling into Profile Dampening because as you said this will become Scan514; especially when 1.5 is released. |
D0DGETHiS zDOG
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 09:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lt Royal wrote:If that one guy is managing to scan you at 200 meters, good for him considering the only scanner that does 200m is the Prototype Flux Active Scanner meaning theyGÇÖve put a lot of SP into it.
As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
Each level in Active Scanners have their own level of scan precision; meaning they can only scan certain suits within that dB range: Basic - 46 dB Advanced - 36 dB Prototype - 28 dB Focused Prototype - 15 dB As you can see the basic scanner won't be able to scan a scout suit as itGÇÖs dB profile range isn't within the scanners dB range: A 46dB scanner cannot acquire something that has a 45 dB scan profile.
If you are running in a medium suit and looking not be be scanned, this means your going to need to gain a 29% reduction to your profile. One way to do this is acquiring level 5 in Profile Dampening and fitting a Complex Profile Dampener, this mean you now be unscannable to any form of advanced scanners. However, if they are indeed using a prototype scanner youGÇÖll be sacrificing too much tank to be unscannable, if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!
Anyway I hope all that helped to understand Active Scanners.
N1 this is the easiest explanation i have ever seen of scanners and profile dampeners. All in plain english and no techy nerd stuff. |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
587
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 10:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Created an amazing well drawn graph of what I mean |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
1045
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
QQQQQQQQQQQ
SCAN514, AR514, LAV514, ETC Htfu. It's something that took an obscene amount of so to use, lots of PG/CPU to fit, and if u invested in dampeners, you would be fine. This is the beginning of ewar- adapt or die. |
Ryme Intrinseca
Seraphim Auxiliaries
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 14:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lt Royal wrote:As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
So for a heavy there is literally no point in putting SP into profile dampening, right? What about range and precision? Is my scanning impacted by the fact that I'm a fat blob is it? (Sorry for the noobish questions, but as a heavy I know basically nothing about scanning.) |
|
Torneido Achura
Suicidal Business Inc.
43
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
What I find ridiculous is the passive scanning distance.. 10 mts?? How tall are this clones anyway.. 9-10mts right? How fast are this dropsuits.. 7mts per second, right? **hahahahahaha
And nevertheless we have lightweights QQ, stupid passive scanners modules, and scanning QQ threads... typical forum shi*.. itGÇÖs amusing yet pathetic.. please donGÇÖt take this personal op, just the harsh reality
|
Smooth Assassin
Stardust incorporation
200
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:The thing is, 200m is way too much, you can stand in the center of the largest map module we have and scan the entire area with a quick 360. I'm not even gonna begin to talk about how this game became Scan514 because unless you invest to ADV/PRO scanners/dampeners, you'll be lit up like a christmas tree. If you run into the guy I did, he literally just sat on the outskirts of the map and scanned over and over revealing my entire team. If you dont see how this is problem, then sorry you dont play shooters enough.
Dampeners went from useful, to required. Worse if you're a scout |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
1518
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
A quick 360 doesn't fully paint targets. You may briefly appear and see "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" but chances are they aren't able to track you without scanning again while holding right on you. The 200m scanner also has the narrowest scan width. That model is best for painting short range snipers and forge gunners when you know they are there and want to mark them for your squad.
Three or four of us have tested scanning and posted detailed guides. Please read, test and understand instead of reading a stat and racing to the forums. |
Nirwanda Vaughns
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Its also given the gallente scout suits a great purpose now too though, at proto level they have a nice scan profile reduction that they can move almost invisible to all but proto scanners and yes 200m is pretty far but its also a lot of SP to use it. nowdays if you want to be stealthy you have to use a suit bult for stealth not just leg it to objective in a proto minmatar logi suit with bottles and codebreakers and hack everything because the team knows where you are. i have an uplink suit which is gallente logi and its made my job a helluva lot harder but thats life |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
992
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:QQQQQQQQQQQ
SCAN514, AR514, LAV514, ETC Htfu. It's something that took an obscene amount of so to use, lots of PG/CPU to fit, and if u invested in dampeners, you would be fine. This is the beginning of ewar- adapt or die. I like that EWAR is a consideration in DUST.
But ISK/SP arguments applied to balance issues or gameplay make me nervous because once the players are in-match what matters is the gameply, not the ISK/SP.
So the question i'd rather ask is what does it do to DUST's gameplay?
And i think for the average grunt coming over from another game to try out DUST the answer is probably the they're going to feel forced into squad-blob gameplay. And this gentle pressure to blob is also being reinforced by the Aim Assist in its current form.
Squads, tacitics, comms are the way to play this game, true. But when game mechanics start narrowing down available playstyles it's something we want to take a good hard look at and decide what we want for DUST.
This isn't something that effects vets too much because with our 20 million sp we don't feel it so much. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is definitely a big change to the way DUST plays and who it appeals to.
Personally i'm fine with it, even running solo as a minmatar assault with 2 low slots. |
NextDark Knight
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Don't forget .. Team view was removed as well.. So before the active scanner changes you where always being scanned and relayed to every member of the enemy team. It's a welcomed change. |
Stevez WingYip
Operation Wolf Pack
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:Anyone else find this ridiculous? I'm literally walking around the whole map, everyone on my team are like little dots far away, and out of no where "You have been scanned". Really? Do I seriously have to walk 201+meters around that one guy who can just do a 1 second 360 no scope with the active scanner and scan an entire map module?
CCP, have one of your dev stand somewhere on dev island, and have another guy stand 200 meters away on the other side of dev island and let me know if you can hear him yelling.
Use profile dampeners. Q.E.D
|
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3931
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
ITT: Nerf rock because I refuse to use paper. |
Seeth Mensch
Damage Core corp. The Superpowers
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 15:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
OP kind of has a point--the incoming scan rush is going to make things a bit ridiculous. Scouts are pretty screwed for right now. All the rest, eh, not so much. This reinforces squad-based tactics we are supposed to be using. If you are lone-wolfing it all the time, yeah, you'll have a much bigger problem (hence my sympathy for scouts, who basically are supposed to go out there and mess them up).
On another note: I liked scanning before it was popular! |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
1054
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 23:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:Was I talking about dampeners?
well, kind of, yes. it'slike saying tanks are op when u dont have any AV on your team. |
|
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1345
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 23:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:Was I talking about dampeners?
You should be, as that is the best way to avoid getting scanned.
Skilling to enhanced dampeners and slapping two on a medium class suit will reduce your profile to around 25dB, which means you are impervious to all scans except the proto one that goes down to 15dB. But most don't use that one over the 25 second 28dB proto one. |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
593
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 23:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Doc Noah wrote:Was I talking about dampeners? well, kind of, yes. it'slike saying tanks are op when u dont have any AV on your team.
Read again, I wasnt complaining about the fact I was scannable but the fact that he could scan me from sniper distances. To go from an already long distance of 100m to suddenly doubling it as a variant was a pretty stupid decision and frankly, a lack of insight on CCP's part. As I posted in my OP, I'm curious as to whether or not a dev actually had a guy scan someone standing 200 meters away and I thought "Damn, maybe that wasnt such a good idea".
CharCharOdell wrote:QQQQQQQQQQQ
SCAN514, AR514, LAV514, ETC Htfu. adapt or die.
And thank you for your constructive criticism. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
794
|
Posted - 2013.09.29 23:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
You realise the long distance scanners have a short result display time! And just getting profile dampening lvl will beat basics, +1 std dampener to defeat advanced! |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1394
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lt Royal wrote:If that one guy is managing to scan you at 200 meters, good for him considering the only scanner that does 200m is the Prototype Flux Active Scanner meaning theyGÇÖve put a lot of SP into it.
As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
Each level in Active Scanners have their own level of scan precision; meaning they can only scan certain suits within that dB range: Basic - 46 dB Advanced - 36 dB Prototype - 28 dB Focused Prototype - 15 dB As you can see the basic scanner won't be able to scan a scout suit as itGÇÖs dB profile range isn't within the scanners dB range: A 46dB scanner cannot acquire something that has a 45 dB scan profile.
If you are running in a medium suit and looking not be be scanned, this means your going to need to gain a 29% reduction to your profile. One way to do this is acquiring level 5 in Profile Dampening and fitting a Complex Profile Dampener, this mean you now be unscannable to any form of advanced scanners. However, if they are indeed using a prototype scanner youGÇÖll be sacrificing too much tank to be unscannable, if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!
Anyway I hope all that helped to understand Active Scanners.
''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!''
EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER.... |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
593
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Stevez WingYip wrote:Use profile dampeners. Q.E.D
Although a different topic altogether, I'm an armor tanker, I honestly dont mind giving up 2 slots to dampener if Dust is gonna become a scan ewar. Although that leaves me with 1-2 slots to fit my low slots and I'll be forced to rely on shield buffer which has gimped base stats compared to caldari and mins. |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
593
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!''
EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER.... He was talking about medium and heavy suits, a gallente scout can avoid focused scanners but they'll have to give up all their low slots. Not sure about min scout, I'll have to check out there slot loadout. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
795
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Lt Royal wrote:If that one guy is managing to scan you at 200 meters, good for him considering the only scanner that does 200m is the Prototype Flux Active Scanner meaning theyGÇÖve put a lot of SP into it.
As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
Each level in Active Scanners have their own level of scan precision; meaning they can only scan certain suits within that dB range: Basic - 46 dB Advanced - 36 dB Prototype - 28 dB Focused Prototype - 15 dB As you can see the basic scanner won't be able to scan a scout suit as itGÇÖs dB profile range isn't within the scanners dB range: A 46dB scanner cannot acquire something that has a 45 dB scan profile.
If you are running in a medium suit and looking not be be scanned, this means your going to need to gain a 29% reduction to your profile. One way to do this is acquiring level 5 in Profile Dampening and fitting a Complex Profile Dampener, this mean you now be unscannable to any form of advanced scanners. However, if they are indeed using a prototype scanner youGÇÖll be sacrificing too much tank to be unscannable, if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!
Anyway I hope all that helped to understand Active Scanners. ''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!'' EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER....
The focused is designed for catching scouts, that's all its really good for, no range, no FO, short display time, short scann time!
The only thing with scanners is a longer charge time!
|
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
594
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
DJINN leukoplast wrote:Doc Noah wrote:Was I talking about dampeners? You should be, as that is the best way to avoid getting scanned. Skilling to enhanced dampeners and slapping two on a medium class suit will reduce your profile to around 25dB, which means you are impervious to all scans except the proto one that goes down to 15dB. But most don't use that one over the 25 second 28dB proto one.
Assault/Medium suit has 50 dB scan profile Most proto active scanners have a scan precision of 28 dB which means you need to drop at least 22 dB to get out of it's range Level 5 dampener with 1 basic and 1 advanced cuts profile by 10+15+20= -45% 50 - (50 x .45)= 27.5 Not quite sure how the numbers are averaged out or not but my guess is the extra advanced dampener isnt necessary and 1 basic and 1 advanced is enough. |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
1056
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Lt Royal wrote:If that one guy is managing to scan you at 200 meters, good for him considering the only scanner that does 200m is the Prototype Flux Active Scanner meaning theyGÇÖve put a lot of SP into it.
As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
Each level in Active Scanners have their own level of scan precision; meaning they can only scan certain suits within that dB range: Basic - 46 dB Advanced - 36 dB Prototype - 28 dB Focused Prototype - 15 dB As you can see the basic scanner won't be able to scan a scout suit as itGÇÖs dB profile range isn't within the scanners dB range: A 46dB scanner cannot acquire something that has a 45 dB scan profile.
If you are running in a medium suit and looking not be be scanned, this means your going to need to gain a 29% reduction to your profile. One way to do this is acquiring level 5 in Profile Dampening and fitting a Complex Profile Dampener, this mean you now be unscannable to any form of advanced scanners. However, if they are indeed using a prototype scanner youGÇÖll be sacrificing too much tank to be unscannable, if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!
Anyway I hope all that helped to understand Active Scanners. ''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!'' EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER....
gotta agree with you, here. one should be able to stealth tank scouts, to an extent. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
796
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 00:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Lt Royal wrote:If that one guy is managing to scan you at 200 meters, good for him considering the only scanner that does 200m is the Prototype Flux Active Scanner meaning theyGÇÖve put a lot of SP into it.
As for Profile Dampeners they are a wise choice to skill into if you are worried about being scanned all the time; as they reduce your dropsuit scan profile making you undetectable to most scanners. Each suit has their set scan profile, which is tied to GÇ£Dessa BellsGÇ¥ or dB: Light Dropsuits - 45 dB Medium Dropsuits - 50 dB Heavy Dropsuits - 65 dB
Each level in Active Scanners have their own level of scan precision; meaning they can only scan certain suits within that dB range: Basic - 46 dB Advanced - 36 dB Prototype - 28 dB Focused Prototype - 15 dB As you can see the basic scanner won't be able to scan a scout suit as itGÇÖs dB profile range isn't within the scanners dB range: A 46dB scanner cannot acquire something that has a 45 dB scan profile.
If you are running in a medium suit and looking not be be scanned, this means your going to need to gain a 29% reduction to your profile. One way to do this is acquiring level 5 in Profile Dampening and fitting a Complex Profile Dampener, this mean you now be unscannable to any form of advanced scanners. However, if they are indeed using a prototype scanner youGÇÖll be sacrificing too much tank to be unscannable, if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!
Anyway I hope all that helped to understand Active Scanners. ''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!'' EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER.... gotta agree with you, here. one should be able to stealth tank scouts, to an extent.
You can to degree, s scou suit starts with 45db profile At lvl 5 scout suit command that becomes 33.75 db At lvl 5 dampening that becomes 25.31db +1 proto = 18db +1 proto = ~14 db
After that it becomes to little to bother, but at 18db you beat all but a focused proto! |
|
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1398
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 01:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!''
EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER.... He was talking about medium and heavy suits, a gallente scout can avoid focused scanners but they'll have to give up all their low slots. Not sure about min scout, I'll have to check out there slot loadout.
and this seems fair to you? not only scouts have less slots than medium frames,but need to sacrifice 3 out of 4 low slots to achieve something they are supposed to do on their own? not to mention minnies cant get pass them even with their 2 slots used for profile damperners.
BROKEN |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
798
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Doc Noah wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:''if they are using a Focused Prototype you're pretty much screwed!''
EXACTLY THIS. Even while proto, scanners should not be able to pick up scouts. NEVER.... He was talking about medium and heavy suits, a gallente scout can avoid focused scanners but they'll have to give up all their low slots. Not sure about min scout, I'll have to check out there slot loadout. and this seems fair to you? not only scouts have less slots than medium frames,but need to sacrifice 3 out of 4 low slots to achieve something they are supposed to do on their own? not to mention minnies cant get pass them even with their 2 slots used for profile damperners.
BROKEN
Nope, working as intended! Just because you are a scout does not mean you should beat every scanner of the bat, if you do that and then brick tank, scouts would become overpowered!
If you don't want to be scanned you need to put an effort in, you think the scouts health is low to allow to sheild tank a superfast wreckingball or is it discourage use in fights?
Scouts work best being sneaky, you can take on a straggler, or guard by yourself with a little cunning, you can't run into, or even nearby a fight! You scout ahead, not clear the way! |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
3154
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
Pretty much repeating everything I've been saying since before Uprising 1.5 when I heard that TacNet was being turned off. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |