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Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
284
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Posted - 2013.09.26 02:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear CCP,
Recently, you all have done some neat things in the realm of stealth and sensors. Removing squad-sight as a means of emphasizing scanner use was, actually, pretty brilliant.
With that acknowledged, let me point out something: you've left passive scanning nerfed all to hell and compensated partially by making hackable installations and apparently even deployable equipment omniscient within a certain radius. This is a bit of a headache for many suit classes, but it's a deadly problem for scouts.
Passive scanning is, for most suits, let's face it, a bad joke. Range is 10 meters plus a 10% (IE, 1 meter) bonus for every level of skill in scanning range. This is enough to detect less-subtle suits sneaking up behind you while you're hacking and nothing more. With maxed skills, you can easily be gunned down from roughly triple your max sensor range by any yobbo with an AR.
This is a problem for many suits, but a special problem for scouts, who are especially unlikely to survive the ambush long enough to retaliate. Even a max-skilled Gallente Scout, without additional modules, has a max sensor range of 20 meters, enough to be marginally more useful but not enough to compensate.
Now, one kinda-sorta fix you've introduced for this problem is a set of handy helpers for detecting intrusion. It seems at present that essentially every piece of deployed equipment and absolutely every hacked installation has its own zone of perfect understanding, within about 15-20 meters.
If it's possible to duck below their scan resolution, I don't know at what level; I'm easily detected with a profile of about 35, and I've yet to encounter a hostile who I couldn't see hacking a friendly CRU.
The result of this is to relegate the scout to a primarily defensive role. Defense makes best use of a scout's speed and typically powerful short-ranged attacks while nullifying the limitations of the scout's passive scanner: anyone approaching the scout's "territory" is visible through the local installations, but is unlikely to detect the scout; anyone hacking those installations is easy prey.
Correspondingly, our offensive capability has been nerfed all to hell. Not only are we limited to either betraying our presence by using an active scan ("You have been scanned" is kind of a give-away) or entering hostile territory blind, but our stealth capabilities are functionally useless the moment we step into an installation's radius of perfect knowledge.
This might be okay if you were focused on creating a stealth-based defender class, but it's a bit problematic for a suit type known as the scout, which sort of implies slipping into hostile territory to scope things out and make trouble without getting almost instantly detected and swiftly slain.
To ameliorate the resulting imbalance, I suggest the following:
1. Lacking other defenses, a scout's primary stock in trade should be superior perception as well as superior stealth. A Minja should be difficult to ambush; a Gallente scout, nearly omniscient. Increase base scout scan radius to 20 meters, leaving the effects of the skills as they are. This would put a max-skilled Minnie scout's radius at 30 meters without additional modules, and a Gallente scout's at a highly-respectable 40. Anything the active scanner loses from this scout buff is more than compensated by the active scanner's vastly superior range and the absence of squad sight.
2. Assign and publish specific sensor strengths for installations and deployables. Basic nanohives might start at around 51, able to detect heavies and not much else. Supply depots and drop uplinks might detect at 44, CRU's (more-critical installations) at 40 or even 36, like an advanced active scanner. Objectives might detect all the way down at 30, essentially mandating the use of dampening modules to conceal an infiltrator's approach.
Thank you for your consideration. Comments and suggestions most welcome. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
307
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well said. +1 |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
124
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just a slight correction for you.
Max skilled Gal scout without modules:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 22.5 meters.
Max skilled Gal scout with 4 complex range amps:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.45 * (1 + 0.45*.87) * (1 + 0.45*.57) * (1 + .45*.28) = 64 meters
Now 64 meters is pretty big... But it's not longer shared so the usefulness is debatable. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
287
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garth Mandra wrote:Just a slight correction for you.
Max skilled Gal scout without modules:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 22.5 meters.
Max skilled Gal scout with 4 complex range amps:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.45 * (1 + 0.45*.87) * (1 + 0.45*.57) * (1 + .45*.28) = 64 meters
Now 64 meters is pretty big... But it's not longer shared so the usefulness is debatable.
Fair enough. CCP hasn't been so good as to actually let me see my stats, so I presumed all calculations were calculated off the base.
Also: concededly, you can do that with the Gal scout ... as a proto fit that does very little with its strongest area other than perceive, and that (in friendly territory) is largely redundant with hacked objectives, or else (in enemy territory) is going to have trouble sneaking up even on a heavy with every supply depot tattling on its location.
It's certainly something. If nothing else, it suggests that expanding the radius might allow a focused Gal scout to get full mini-map coverage with a couple of complex mods. Not sure that's a bad thing in the slightest. |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
124
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yep it could be pretty useful if you're able to do anything else with that fitted which is unlikely. And it is no longer shared with squad so you can only attempt to describe what's going on to your buddies.
Also some brave boffins did some experiments with scanning before 1.4 and things didn't seem to be behaving as they should. I don't know if those issues were real and if they are I doubt they've been fixed. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
4282
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Garth Mandra wrote:Just a slight correction for you.
Max skilled Gal scout without modules:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 22.5 meters.
Max skilled Gal scout with 4 complex range amps:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.45 * (1 + 0.45*.87) * (1 + 0.45*.57) * (1 + .45*.28) = 64 meters
Now 64 meters is pretty big... But it's not longer shared so the usefulness is debatable.
That is some very solid math you got there. However, according to the item description there is no stacking penalty and so far I have not yet seen the effects of stacking penalties on my alt which I have put together specifically for this profession. You will generally know if the item has a stacking penalty if the description says so. Even Eve Online has modules that don't have stacking penalties.
That said, without stacking penalties, the estimated passive scan range is 99 meters at max. |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
124
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
You're right Maken.
I have no idea if it has stacking penalties or not so I was just assuming the worst. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
4283
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Garth Mandra wrote:You're right Maken.
I have no idea if it has stacking penalties or not so I was just assuming the worst.
It's always safe to assume the worst. |
Melchiah ARANeAE
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
46
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
The majority of scanning at the moment is a joke. It's better now that scan results aren't shared with the whole team, but it still sucks.
Alongside your proposed changes, I propose passive scanners have effective and absolute ranges. Scans within the effective range would act exactly as it does now. However, outside the effective range, the scan precision will get worse as it approaches the absolute range. Anything past the absolute range won't be scanned.
Also, I l think that firing weapons should increase your scan profile briefly. For example, firing and AR makes your scan profile increase to 100db, sniper rifle to 120db, forge gun 80db whilst charging and 130db upon firing etc. Then you could also add silenced weaponry to help scouts (or at least scouty assault suits) hide from the scanning within the absolute range. |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
124
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Posted - 2013.09.26 04:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Good ideas Melchiah.
I would much prefer it if scan results were more of a spectrum. From exact location, facing and suit size to there is a red over there somewhere.
Added profile modifiers for recent firing and sprinting and stuff would be good too.
First though I think the basics of the scanning system need to be worked out. There is still a ways to go in that department. |
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1292
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Posted - 2013.09.26 13:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Garth Mandra wrote:Just a slight correction for you.
Max skilled Gal scout without modules:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 22.5 meters.
Max skilled Gal scout with 4 complex range amps:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.45 * (1 + 0.45*.87) * (1 + 0.45*.57) * (1 + .45*.28) = 64 meters
Now 64 meters is pretty big... But it's not longer shared so the usefulness is debatable.
A Proto GalScout with 4 complex range amps ...
Would be hard-pressed to fit anything else of value on his suit.
Would be better off running even a Basic Scanner.
Would be a dead Scout if/when he decided to fight. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
292
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Posted - 2013.09.26 16:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:A Proto GalScout with 4 complex range amps ...
Would be hard-pressed to fit anything else of value on his suit.
Would be better off running even a Basic Scanner.
Would be a dead Scout if/when he decided to fight.
Well ... in fairness, the idea's probably that the scout uses that superior knowledge to avoid fighting except the sort of "fight" that starts with a shotgun muzzle pressed against somebody's kidneys.
Easier said than done, however, and the scout's unlikely to survive when things go to hell, especially if the scout is also running a precision enhancer so that at least some, if not all, other scouts also appear on the mini-map. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
999
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Posted - 2013.09.26 18:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sure.
Scout need something special about them besides being made of paper. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
2174
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Posted - 2013.09.26 19:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Wait, you mean to say that my nanohives and drop uplinks are passive scanners too?
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Thurak1
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
211
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Posted - 2013.09.26 19:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
This discussion alone also points out another annoying issue. We do not really know what the values are and how the stacking ends up being applied. Is everything compounded? Is everything based off the base score of the suit? Are moduels based off the base score of the suit + passive skills? I have no way of actually knowing unless i can get someone in game to co-operate with me and we do a bit of guesstimation with range.
To me it would make a lot of sense if on the drop suit fitting page it lists all the actual values as though you were wearing the suit. I mean everything scan range weapon effective range weapon optimal range everything. I think it would be a very useful tool and i can't imagine it would be hard to impliment the game already has to do these calculations. |
Thurak1
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
211
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Posted - 2013.09.26 19:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Sure.
Scout need something special about them besides being made of paper.
Personally i wish scouts still shared their passive scanning with tacnet. But with the active scanner reward coming soon maybe more scouts will be using a scanner. Anything that helps my heavy not be so blind on the BF. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
292
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Posted - 2013.09.28 05:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thurak1 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Sure.
Scout need something special about them besides being made of paper. Personally i wish scouts still shared their passive scanning with tacnet. But with the active scanner reward coming soon maybe more scouts will be using a scanner. Anything that helps my heavy not be so blind on the BF.
Sharing passive scanning would put us in competition with the active scanner, and would make a range-heavy Gal Scout a direct replacement for same (especially the proto fit with range boosts in every low-slot). While I have other uses for the equipment slot (boom! Heheheheee), there ought to be a reason for even Gal scouts to pack one.
Remember also that the scanner announces its presence; the scout need not. A prime reason to whip it out is to show the rest of your squad what you're looking at; I'd rather not take that away.
Passive scan is vital for personal survival, however. |
zibathy numbertwo
Nox Aeterna Security
154
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Posted - 2013.09.28 09:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
I agree 110% with everything the OP said, and that doesn't happen very often. |
Seeth Mensch
Damage Core corp.
The Superpowers
26
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Posted - 2013.09.28 20:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
A bump for hidden ninja justice! |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1326
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Posted - 2013.09.28 23:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bug or By Design? |
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Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
296
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Posted - 2013.09.29 00:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Bug or By Design?
Smells, strongly, of "by design."
It's specific to your own side's resources, it limits the need to have your active scanner-users pulled back and playing defense, it mitigates the "fog of war" from the lack of squad sight when determining where to respawn, and it essentially simulates the presence of security surveillance.
It also makes it damned important to keep solid control of resources in confined spaces, such as outlying "well" structures associated with the research facility.
It fulfills a purpose, it's relatively balanced, it adds something to strategy within the game.
If it's not intentional, it's a damned useful bug. My problem with it is only that it's a little too useful. |
Chilled Pill
Pro Hic Immortalis
207
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Posted - 2013.09.29 06:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Garth Mandra wrote:Just a slight correction for you.
Max skilled Gal scout without modules:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 22.5 meters.
Max skilled Gal scout with 4 complex range amps:
10 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.45 * (1 + 0.45*.87) * (1 + 0.45*.57) * (1 + .45*.28) = 64 meters
Now 64 meters is pretty big... But it's not longer shared so the usefulness is debatable.
OMG another one of those 'well if you put 4 blah blah mods on the Gal Scout' geniuses.  They seem to be everywhere these days.
What's the line of thinking anyway: "Well, might as well take this argument to the max......into the realm of idiocy." |
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