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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1105
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 10:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently the Swarm Launcher is the only weapon along with the Nova Knives that don't follow the trend of getting a 5% damage increase between tiers (the Laser Rifle maybe as well, but that weapon special in other ways too).
Any other weapon than these two or three have a 5% damage increase between tiers. This means that if the base damage on the Standard tiered weapon is 10, then the base damage on the Advanced tiered weapon is 10.5 and 11 on the Prototype. All other weapons function like this, including the Forge Gun and the Plasma Cannon, the other two AV weapons.
Why shouldn't the Swarm Launcher follow this trend? Since the Swarm Launcher currently gets an extra missile doing 330 damage at each tier, the Swarm Launcher actually gets a 25% damage increase between the tiers. Such a huge damage increase between the tiers means that there's a huge damage difference in raw numbers, not only on the base damage, but in fact even more when you factor in the Proficiency skill and Damage mods.
A Standard Swarm Launcher with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods is doing around 1915 damage. An Advanced Swarm Launcher with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods is doing around 2400 damage. A Prototype Swarm Launcher with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods is doing around 2870 damage.
This means that there's almost a 1000 damage difference between the Std and Pro Swarm Launcher per shot, or almost a 3000 damage difference per clip. That is a huge damage difference and in my opinion it is very wrong.
What this usually means is that the Std Swarm Launcher is usually not a real threat to any vehicle while the Pro Swarm Launcher is actually more of a threat than it should be in my opinion.
I think the Swarm Launcher would be better balanced if it had a 5% damage increase between tiers, like almost all other weapons. The current damage on the Std Swarm Launcher would probably be too low of a startingpoint, so a base damage of around 400 per missile would probably be good.
This would mean that the Standard would be doing 1600 damage, 400 damage on four missiles. Advanced would be doing 1680 damage, 420 damage on four missiles. Prototype would be doing 1760 damage, 440 damage on four missiles.
These damage values would give the Std 280 more damage than now, the Adv 30 more damage than now and the Pro 220 less damage than now.
If you factor in Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods like before, the damage values would be Around 2320 on Std Around 2435 on Adv Around 2550 on Pro
I honestly think that the Swarm Launcher with this slight damage buff to the Std tier and slight damage nerf to the Pro tier would be better balanced.
TL;DR The Swarm Launcher currently has a 25% damage increase between the tiers, which in my opinion makes it fairly unbalanced both at Std and Pro tier. A 5% damage increase like almost all other weapons have would be better. |
Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
209
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Posted - 2013.09.22 10:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Currently the Swarm Launcher is the only weapon along with the Nova Knives that don't follow the trend of getting a 5% damage increase between tiers (the Laser Rifle maybe as well, but that weapon special in other ways too).
Any other weapon than these two or three have a 5% damage increase between tiers. This means that if the base damage on the Standard tiered weapon is 10, then the base damage on the Advanced tiered weapon is 10.5 and 11 on the Prototype. All other weapons function like this, including the Forge Gun and the Plasma Cannon, the other two AV weapons.
Why shouldn't the Swarm Launcher follow this trend? Since the Swarm Launcher currently gets an extra missile doing 330 damage at each tier, the Swarm Launcher actually gets a 25% damage increase between the tiers. Such a huge damage increase between the tiers means that there's a huge damage difference in raw numbers, not only on the base damage, but in fact even more when you factor in the Proficiency skill and Damage mods.
A Standard Swarm Launcher with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods is doing around 1915 damage. An Advanced Swarm Launcher with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods is doing around 2400 damage. A Prototype Swarm Launcher with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods is doing around 2870 damage.
This means that there's almost a 1000 damage difference between the Std and Pro Swarm Launcher per shot, or almost a 3000 damage difference per clip. That is a huge damage difference and in my opinion it is very wrong.
What this usually means is that the Std Swarm Launcher is usually not a real threat to any vehicle while the Pro Swarm Launcher is actually more of a threat than it should be in my opinion.
I think the Swarm Launcher would be better balanced if it had a 5% damage increase between tiers, like almost all other weapons. The current damage on the Std Swarm Launcher would probably be too low of a startingpoint, so a base damage of around 400 per missile would probably be good.
This would mean that the Standard would be doing 1600 damage, 400 damage on four missiles. Advanced would be doing 1680 damage, 420 damage on four missiles. Prototype would be doing 1760 damage, 440 damage on four missiles.
These damage values would give the Std 280 more damage than now, the Adv 30 more damage than now and the Pro 220 less damage than now.
If you factor in Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods like before, the damage values would be Around 2320 on Std Around 2435 on Adv Around 2550 on Pro
I honestly think that the Swarm Launcher with this slight damage buff to the Std tier and slight damage nerf to the Pro tier would be better balanced.
TL;DR The Swarm Launcher currently has a 25% damage increase between the tiers, which in my opinion makes it fairly unbalanced both at Std and Pro tier. A 5% damage increase like almost all other weapons have would be better. Its also the only vehicle only weapon except AV grenades. Speaking of grenades, the prototype grenades do 50% more damage than the standard as well. It swarms get nerfed like this, then grenades should as well, even thought everyone's precious core locus grenades would only do 440 damage. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1105
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 10:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:Its also the only vehicle only weapon except AV grenades. Speaking of grenades, the prototype grenades do 50% more damage than the standard as well. It swarms get nerfed like this, then grenades should as well, even thought everyone's precious core locus grenades would only do 440 damage. Buff or nerf depends how you look at it.
With my suggested numbers both the Standard and Advanced have been buffed. Specific numbers can always be worked out, the point of the thread was to show that Swarms should get a 5% damage increase between tiers instead of the current 25% damage increase. |
Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
209
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Posted - 2013.09.22 10:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thing is, nobody would use the proto swarms because they wouldn't be worth it anymore if they were like this, everyone would settle for the standard and vehicles would blow up even faster, because there would be no real SP requirement to AV. While at first glance this is a nerf to Swarms, its an even bigger nerf to vehicles. Currently, the fact that standard swarms kind of suck is saving vehicles a lot. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1105
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 10:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:Thing is, nobody would use the proto swarms because they wouldn't be worth it anymore if they were like this, everyone would settle for the standard and vehicles would blow up even faster, because there would be no real SP requirement to AV. While at first glance this is a nerf to Swarms, its an even bigger nerf to vehicles. Currently, the fact that standard swarms kind of suck is saving vehicles a lot. I don't know about that tbh.
Don't people use Proto ARs? Proto Forge Guns? Proto everything else? Why wouldn't people use Proto Swarms then?
Currently people aren't using the Standard Swarms because it's worthless (more or less anyway). This means that people are forced to use Proto Swarms which means they're doing around 2k just in base damage (almost 2.9k with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods).
If you say that people would just use Standard Swarms with this change, then that means they'll be doing 400 less damage per shot than now (since people are using Proto Swarms currently, because the Standard Swarms is worthless according to you), or around 550 less damage with Prof 5 and 3 Damage Mods than now. |
Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
210
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 10:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Fizzer94 wrote:Thing is, nobody would use the proto swarms because they wouldn't be worth it anymore if they were like this, everyone would settle for the standard and vehicles would blow up even faster, because there would be no real SP requirement to AV. While at first glance this is a nerf to Swarms, its an even bigger nerf to vehicles. Currently, the fact that standard swarms kind of suck is saving vehicles a lot. I don't know about that tbh. Don't people use Proto ARs? Proto Forge Guns? Proto everything else? Why wouldn't people use Proto Swarms then? Currently people aren't using the Standard Swarms because it's worthless (more or less anyway). This means that people are forced to use Proto Swarms which means they're doing around 2k just in base damage (almost 2.9k with Proficiency 5 and 3 Damage Mods). If you say that people would just use Standard Swarms with this change, then that means they'll be doing 400 less damage per shot than now (since people are using Proto Swarms currently, because the Standard Swarms is worthless according to you), or around 550 less damage with Prof 5 and 3 Damage Mods than now. What I am trying to say, is that while this would decrease the use of proto swarm launchers, it would drastically increase the use of the others, to the point of overuse. The militia swarms would be almost equivalent to the advanced swarms we have now, vehicles would have no chance with everyone having access to something like this. Vehicle users already have to worry about OP proto swarms, they don't need to worry about OP standard and advanced swarms as well. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1105
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 10:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:What I am trying to say, is that while this would decrease the use of proto swarm launchers, it would drastically increase the use of the others, to the point of overuse. The militia swarms would be almost equivalent to the advanced swarms we have now, vehicles would have no chance with everyone having access to something like this. Vehicle users already have to worry about OP proto swarms, they don't need to worry about OP standard and advanced swarms as well. Right.
Proto Swarms is somewhat OP currently, that we can agree on. This change is nerfing Proto Swarms.
I think that Standard Swarms is currently a little UP. This change buffs them slightly.
There's hardly a difference in Advanced Swarms with this change. Sure it would have 30 base damage more, but that's barely anything.
Now, this of course also comes down to how efficient each of us think Standard and Advanced Swarms should be against the current Standard vehicles. I'm in support of those that believe that vehicles should be able to be killed by a single user using AV of the same tier as the vehicle. This means Standard Swarms should be able to take out Standard vehicles. Currently they can't really do that, since Standard Swarms are fairly useless. With this change they get a slight buff, so that they actually can take out Standard vehicle.
A single AV user shouldn't be able to instantly take out vehicles, but he should be able to solo it over a certain amount of time, be it 10 seconds or 30 seconds. The exact time is not really important right now.
You're saying that with this change a group of people can then switch to Standard Swarms and take out a vehicle. Let's use an example of 3 guys using Standard Swarms. Would a single vehicle with 2 infantry supporting it fear the three AV guys? I think the vehicle and the 2 infantry support would kill the 3 AV guys.
What if the 3 AV guys had the support of 3 infantry? Would a single vehicle user with the support of 5 infantry fear them? Maybe a little, but in most cases the vehicle with that support should come out on top in my opinion.
What about 1 AV guy with support of 5 infantry? Would a single vehicle user with the support of 5 infantry fear them? I think so yes, since he would likely die if his support isn't better than the AV guy's support. |
G Torq
ALTA B2O
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 11:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:[lots of text...] TL;DR The Swarm Launcher currently has a 25% damage increase between the tiers, which in my opinion makes it fairly unbalanced both at Std and Pro tier. A 5% damage increase like almost all other weapons have would be better.
Observations: 1) Swarm Launchers cannot target infantry, do not dumb-fire and are largely useless against DropShips 2) If/When we get counter-meassures, the extra missiles would be a good way to still get some damage through 3) Having a cheap but still useable option for most players, means a team CAN deploy significant AV weaponry if required, while in higher tiers a small squad can be directed to handle vehicles
Overall, i suggest to leave swarm-launchers where they are. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1105
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 11:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Derp.
Looking over the Forge Gun numbers made me realise that the FG gets a damage increase of 10% between the tiers. My suggestion still stands though, except the Swarm Launcher should get a 10% damage increase instead of the 5% I originally suggested. I'll update the OP to reflect this.
New numbers should be Standard Swarm Launcher would be doing 1520 damage, 380 damage on four missiles. Advanced Swarm Launcher would be doing 1672 damage, 418 damage on four missiles. Prototype Swarm Launcher would be doing 1824 damage, 456 damage on four missiles.
With these numbers the Std would do 200 more damage than now, the Adv 22 more damage than now and the Pro 156 less damage than now.
The Swarm Launcher would with these numbers also be doing just around 200 more damage than the Forge Gun when comparing each tier.
I feel these numbers would balance the Swarm Launcher a great deal. |
Sgt Buttscratch
SLAPHAPPY BANDITS
794
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 13:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
i'd say STD 150 per missile 6 missile ADV 175 per missile 6 missile PRO 200 per missile 6 missile
Also make them render from all distances, and not do any crazy as 180 degree turns.
That'd seem more like a realistic missile launcher |
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