DUST Search - Sniper ADS/Movement sway

Skipper Jones wrote:

Awry Barux wrote:

Skipper Jones wrote:

Crouch, and wait for a few seconds.

Snipers shouldn't be able to zoom in and be pin-point accurate is soon as they do. They are fine as they are.

See my previous post for my reasons why you're incorrect: crouching and waiting for two seconds is not an option, and snipers are not fine as they are. Please provide an argument for your point, rather than simply asserting that you are right and I am wrong.

Every other weapon can zoom and be pin-point accurate as soon as they do, including full automatic weapons like the AR. Why would a rifle designed specifically for precision work be unable to do so?

I'm pretty sure you are the one asserting your opinion as fact sir.

You want a reason? Fine.

The reason that other weapons have pinpoint accuracy as soon as the aim down sights is that the need it. In the frontlines you can't wait 2 seconds for your gun to stop wobbling. A sniper rifle shouldn't be in the frontlines/CqC. Snipers have more time to shoot and aim. I know many snipers (including myself) that can be a mobile sniper. Stay behind the action. If you aren't in the direct line of fire you DO have those 2 extra seconds to spare.

You may say "quickscoping isn't gonna happen. I'm right and you're wrong Cry

. I'm better than you"...... Quickscoping can and will happen. Most shots take two-three sniper bullets to kill, you are correct on that. Ask yourself this though. Can a magazine of sniper rounds take out a suit? The answer is yes. A Tactical sniper rifle can take out most suits within its 3 clip magazine. With pinpoint accuracy for a gun that can 2 shot kill is COMPLETELY unbalanced.

Assault weapons take a few bullets to kill someone. Even the TAC AR/ SR needs 5 or so bullets to take out someone. That is WITH accurate pinpoint accuracy upon aiming down your sight. Think about a gun that has the same even better accuracy that can drop a suit in 2 shots. WAY OP. Get real dude.

Snipers serve their role. They aren't supposed to be up close and personal with the enemy. When you're chilling back there with you sniper rifle you have the time to wait two seconds and crouch. You can even move closer and still have time to sit and aim. If you have a problem with getting killed while trying to zoom-in and snipe, then that's player error. You should move back a little bit and stop complaining.


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Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 52	Posted - 2013.09.19 04:33:00 - [1] - Quote The level of sway and random deviation in the first few seconds of ADS or after moving on a sniper is absolutely ridiculous. When compared to the rock-solid steadiness of the FG or any number of fully automatic weapons, it makes no sense, and moreover heavily encourages, borderline forces, snipers to sit in one place scoped in for extended periods of time. It removes any real feeling of precision from the weapon when compared, say, to the LR, which allows you to switch between ADS and hipfire quickly and easily with 0 change in aim. THAT is precision. The sniper, which has no hip fire sight, should at the very least not sway 20 degrees off of where I was looking when I ADSed. I understand the need to make snipers unwieldly to use at mid to short range, but the amount that the game hamfistedly pushes around where you're aiming is simply too much. From a game balance perspective, it's not needed. I assume that it was added to the game to discourage quickscoping and other CoD-like CQC sniper tactics, but the damage of current snipers leaves them at a 2-3 shot kill in most situations, making those concerns unwarranted.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 59	Posted - 2013.09.19 14:14:00 - [2] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: OP, you're correct, but like this ignorant troll above me, CCP has a childish vendetta against snipers, and is on a campaign to phase them out completely. Compared to other games sniping isn't all that hard in Dust. Yes there is sway but once you crouch the scope is steady as hell and snaps back into the original position after every shot, so you don't need to adjust your aim for a follow of shot... Hell IHMO to get a seady scope you should have to use your stamina Read please, I know it's perfectly steady when you're sitting in one place crouched, after the first 1-2 seconds. I agree that sniping is this game is easy when you can set up shop and not move and stay scoped in all game. That's not how snipers should have to play, though, and I don't think that's what any infantry wants the snipers to do. What I'm complaining about is the initial jerk right when you ADS, even when crouching, which pulls you very far off of where you were looking. Given this game's extremely low ADS sensitivity in relation to hip sensitivity, it ranges from difficult to impossible to correct for this initial jerk in a timely manner. The new map/socket/whatever basically forces snipers into the ~100M light weapon range, and the initial jerk will kill you every time while you desperately try to adapt. Cosgar wrote: The initial sway is there to prevent quick scoping. Yes, I realize that. I'm saying that's not necessary from a game balance perspective. Quick scoping is a dangerous mechanic when snipers are OHK weapons, but that's just very much not the case in Dust. Snipers already have mediocre damage, low fire rate, zero hip fire capability, and small clips. It doesn't have to be impossible to quick scope as well . Timothy Reaper wrote: I've been sniping in this game since last year, and I don't have that trouble with it. Plus the Sniper Rifle Operation skillbook reduces the sway quite a bit. Congratulations teach me your voodoo. I have sniper operations at 5 of course.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2013.09.19 18:28:00 - [3] - Quote Lightning Bolt2 wrote: I can just tell the OP is a quickscoper... those few seconds are fine when I snipe, the problem is when I move just a little I can't aim at all. "You can just tell" that I'm a quickscoper? I'm not really sure what that means. I don't quickscope in this game because there wouldn't be any point in doing so, even if sway mechanics were changed to make it possible. When the enemy is in quickscoping range they're going to shred you with AR/SCR fire before your mediocre sniper DPS can do anything about it. This isn't CoD, where a good quickscoper can OHK everything in sight. The reason I want sway reduced/removed is to make it possible to snipe in situations where you need to move in and out of cover, i.e. inside the new socket. Also, this has implications in terms of counter-sniping- the sniper who has managed to set up shop where they don't have to move has a massive advantage over anyone trying to pop out and snipe without waiting 2 seconds for scope sway to become reasonable. On a lore note: my fusion-powered supercomputer-holding inertia-dampening dropsuit should be able to stabilize a rifle.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2013.09.19 18:54:00 - [4] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: i havnt had much trouble with the sniper rifle while using it other than the fact that its hard to countersnipe snipers u cant see..... quickscoping shouldnt even be able to exist on here.... and that so called sway is correctable easily... i only put enough sp into sniper rifles just to use the tac sniper.. so far ive only gotten one no scope kill with it.. and that was probably a once in a life time shot. but the sniper rifle right now is fine.. but with the buff to armor it makes me think the std tac sniper rifles need a buff in clipsize from 3 to 4... just to counter act the armor buff...the higher damaging snipers r fine... and it can be used in and around mid - long range. quite easily... u dont need to stay out of range from every1 else just to use it...(thats called camping) what i think is that after u fire your first few shots your position should be given away immediately and your location should be pointed out to the enemy... maybe like a giant red arrow over your head for 5-10 secs maybe?... although u would have to hit a player or object like a tank or lav first for it to happen...... Way to completely ignore the actual subject of the post... put your suggestions in a different post, as they have nothing to do with sway. Have you ever actually tried to aim and fire a sniper within 1 second of ADSing, especially immediately after moving? Even if you're crawling left and right with crouch, it's borderline impossible. To get an idea of just how bad it is, point your sniper at the center of a wall, then ADS in and out repeatedly quickly. You'll see your aim go all over the place, because whenever you ADS, the game shoves your aim a solid 20 degrees off of where you were looking. Note, also, that I'm not talking about standing aim sway- that's totally reasonable and really really easy to correct for. If there's one thing snipers DON'T need, it's a damage buff. Damage, clip size, etc, are absolutely fine. We just need mechanics to stop gimping our accuracy while doing anything other than camping. Crouching in one place staying constantly ADSed is the only way to be able to react to new threats in a timely manner. Current sniper sway mechanics encourage camping, and I don't want that.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2013.09.19 21:46:00 - [5] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: 1 second of ads of any sniper rifle shouldnt be possible any ways... quickscoping is one of the worst things ever to have been invented on any game. the sway pretty much functions that way because it is a scope u have to look through..u cant immediately look through the scope and be 100% accurate with next to no sway.. and it doesnt take long for the sway to completely disappear while crouched. the quick scope should be impossible to pull off on dust yet it can still be done if done right... what quick scoping does is give players the ability to use an extremely powerful weapon in cqc. and running and gunning with a sniper rifle shouldnt be possible any ways.... this is not halo where snipers have no sway on they scopes and have perfect precision while standing up... this is not cod where every1 uses a sniper rifle in cqc.. this is dust 514 where the sniper is intended for long ranged combat.. by picking off certain players on the enemy team... but since all snipers do right now is camp in the redzone only trying to pad their own kdr their is no need to reduce scope sway as a sniper is really a type of stationary position...its immobile when trying to find and shoot targets yet has the mobility to get around the battlefield unseen.... the snipers role is one of stealth but the stealth part doesnt mean the sniper should be undetectable... the sniper should be detectable after firing a few rounds... its not a frontline combat role and never should be.... the new maps force snipers to move around if they want to pad their kdrs... the old maps basically promoted camping in a single spot for the entire match.. so the instant massive sway mechanic is what prevents the sniper rifle from being deadly in cqc it doesnt promote camping thats the players choice to camp... many snipers will just pick a nice little spot and stay there for the entire match.... so that nice little spot is what promotes the camping..not the sway.... First, please, for the greater good, use capitalization and don't end every sentence... in an ellipsis... it makes you sound like you're trailing off... every time. It weakens any force that may have been behind your argument. Speak clearly. I don't think you've ever used a sniper for a significant amount of time in Dust. If you did, you'd realize it's NOT extremely powerful. It's DPS is lower than the AR's, the SMG's, the SCR's, pretty much everything but MD splash will out-DPS a sniper. The Proto Tac Sniper, the highest DPS of any ISK sniper, does a mere 325 burst DPS for 2 seconds out of every 6, since it has a 4 second reload. That's not even counting the time it would take to aim it. In contrast, a MLT AR with no damage mods or skills does 425 per second, with a shorter reload, 2x as much damage per clip, and no sway. Trust me, snipers are NOT going to become the next OP CQC weapon if we remove their ADS sway. I cannot make it any clearer than this. I smell an AR user, paranoid about other weapon types becoming even mildly viable. There are two options for being effective as a sniper: be far enough away that your low DPS is not going to get you killed (100M+), or be able to aim quickly and accurately enough to land mid-range (70-100M) headshots. The new map/socket/whatever has ZERO good locations for that 100M+ long range sight line. While I dislike that, whatever, there's no way they're going to change the map. So, snipers HAVE to become usable within 100M. Not perfect, not OP, just usable. In the mid range, sitting and crouching for extended periods of time is not an option, since you're a sitting duck for Tac AR and LR fire, so you have to move in and out of cover. But every time you pop out and go to aim, the game jerks the scope far off target. In the 1 second (on a good day) that it takes you to correct your aim , a Tac AR can put out 6x75 = 450 damage, AKA more health than most sniper fits have. Plus, for the record, the Tac AR has "a scope u have to look through... u cant immediately look through the scope and be 100% accurate with next to no sway". Oh wait, yes you can, for every scoped weapon EXCEPT the sniper. IF you could count on having a OHK with the sniper, then you might have a chance to win, but as it is, most suits will take 2-3 shots. By then, you're dead, unless your opponents are truly incompetent. I just want sniper rifles to be viable on the new map, which seems to constitute about 50% of games now. You say that "all snipers do right now is camp in the redzone", and you're right, that is what most do. But why? Because aiming after moving with a sniper is nearly impossible! In one breath, you say that sniper should be stealthy and forced to move around, and in another, you say that no sway reduction is needed, because "a sniper is really a type of stationary position". I can't be bothered to point out the rest of the internal contradictions in your post. You of all people should support this change.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2013.09.19 21:57:00 - [6] - Quote Skipper Jones wrote: Crouch, and wait for a few seconds. Snipers shouldn't be able to zoom in and be pin-point accurate is soon as they do. They are fine as they are. See my previous post for my reasons why you're incorrect. Please provide an argument for your point, rather than simply asserting that you are right and I am wrong.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2013.09.19 22:56:00 - [7] - Quote Skipper Jones wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Skipper Jones wrote: Crouch, and wait for a few seconds. Snipers shouldn't be able to zoom in and be pin-point accurate is soon as they do. They are fine as they are. See my previous post for my reasons why you're incorrect: crouching and waiting for two seconds is not an option, and snipers are not fine as they are. Please provide an argument for your point, rather than simply asserting that you are right and I am wrong. Every other weapon can zoom and be pin-point accurate as soon as they do, including full automatic weapons like the AR. Why would a rifle designed specifically for precision work be unable to do so? I'm pretty sure you are the one asserting your opinion as fact sir. You want a reason? Fine. The reason that other weapons have pinpoint accuracy as soon as the aim down sights is that the need it. In the frontlines you can't wait 2 seconds for your gun to stop wobbling. A sniper rifle shouldn't be in the frontlines/CqC. Snipers have more time to shoot and aim. I know many snipers (including myself) that can be a mobile sniper. Stay behind the action. If you aren't in the direct line of fire you DO have those 2 extra seconds to spare. You may say "quickscoping isn't gonna happen. I'm right and you're wrong. I'm better than you"...... Quickscoping can and will happen. Most shots take two-three sniper bullets to kill, you are correct on that. Ask yourself this though. Can a magazine of sniper rounds take out a suit? The answer is yes. A Tactical sniper rifle can take out most suits within its 3 clip magazine. With pinpoint accuracy for a gun that can 2 shot kill is COMPLETELY unbalanced. Assault weapons take a few bullets to kill someone. Even the TAC AR/ SR needs 5 or so bullets to take out someone. That is WITH accurate pinpoint accuracy upon aiming down your sight. Think about a gun that has the same even better accuracy that can drop a suit in 2 shots. WAY OP. Get real dude. Snipers serve their role. They aren't supposed to be up close and personal with the enemy. When you're chilling back there with you sniper rifle you have the time to wait two seconds and crouch. You can even move closer and still have time to sit and aim. If you have a problem with getting killed while trying to zoom-in and snipe, then that's player error. You should move back a little bit and stop complaining. Did you even read my post? The Tac AR out-DPSes the Tac SR significantly. It can get out about 10 shots in the time it takes for the Tac SR to do 2. Both have pinpoint accuracy. So, which one wins head to head, within the effective range of the Tac AR? The Tac AR, obviously. Additionally, the Tac AR has hip fire guides, making it much easier to know where your ADS will be aimed, further increasing its effective DPS over that of the Tac SR, which has no such aid. Completely unbalanced my left nut. Anyone who tries to quickscope is just going to get wrecked by superior AR DPS. Lowering/removing sway is not going to turn the sniper into some sort of CQC/frontline monster. Use maths. On the subject of having those two seconds to spare, there's really nowhere in the new socket to both have room for those 2 seconds and have a properly useful sightline. Mostly, my complaints are limited to the terribleness that is the new map. I can use the old sniper playstyle and find a perch, but then there's no good view of where the fighting is occurring. To get a good view, you have to get within 100M of the enemy. This, in turn, makes stealth not an option- any decent opponent is active scanning 360 degrees for prey within that 100M range. It's not that it's actually impossible to snipe- it's possible, I can still do decently, but the new map represents a clear game balance shift away from snipers and towards CQC infantry work. It's almost laughably easy to do well on the new map with a BPO AR and a standard assault suit. With the reduction or removal of sway, the SR becomes somewhat usable within 100M, but is still the lowest-DPS non-splash light weapon, and a competent AR user will still wipe the floor with you.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 68	Posted - 2013.09.19 23:51:00 - [8] - Quote Skipper Jones wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Anyone who tries to quickscope is just going to get wrecked by superior AR DPS. Lowering/removing sway is not going to turn the sniper into some sort of CQC/frontline monster. Use maths. Yes it will. The situation will not always be a head-on fire fight between the Sniper rifle and the AR. (When I say SR I mean Scrambler rifle. Do you know what a Scrambler rifle is?) Remember that a AR user will not connect every shot, so DPS partially goes out the window there. Anybody can get of 2 Sniper shots in enough time to be able to kill a suits. Remember suits have varying health as well. So DPS can not be your only fall back on inserting quickscoping in this game. Awry Barux wrote: On the subject of having those two seconds to spare, there's really nowhere in the new socket to both have room for those 2 seconds and have a properly useful sightline. Mostly, my complaints are limited to the terribleness that is the new map. I can use the old sniper playstyle and find a perch, but then there's no good view of where the fighting is occurring. To get a good view, you have to get within 100M of the enemy. This, in turn, makes stealth not an option- any decent opponent is active scanning 360 degrees for prey within that 100M range. It's not that it's actually impossible to snipe- it's possible, I can still do decently, but the new map represents a clear game balance shift away from snipers and towards CQC infantry work. It's almost laughably easy to do well on the new map with a BPO AR and a standard assault suit. With the reduction or removal of sway, the SR becomes somewhat usable within 100M, but is still the lowest-DPS non-splash light weapon, and a competent AR user will still wipe the floor with you. Easy solution. Don't snipe on that map. Skill into another gun. Not that hard of a task to-do. Snipe on certain maps, Assault on others. 0. Yes, I know what a scrambler rifle is. To most on the forums, the scrambler rifle is the SCR, and the sniper rifle is the SR. 1. What happens when the sniper misses? Good luck having 100% accuracy on a strafing AR user. Miss 1 shot, and any decently tanked fit will require a 4-second reload before killing. For example, a MLT Cal Medium frame with 2x MLT extenders and a MLT armor plate has about 500 EHP. That's 3 shots right there. 2. All weapons should be viable on all maps. That's called good game balance. 3. I've skilled into SCRs and ARs as well, and do use them on the new map. Like I said, it's laughably easy to do well with those weapons, as 99% of engagements on the new map occur within those optimals. With a scanner and half decent gun game, it's just easy mode. Either the map design needs to change or weapons need to be adjusted.