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Spike Jin-Mei
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
-'Your decisions matter'
A favourite of every DUST Vet .. most notably the Eve players inexperienced in FPS games .. usually the decisions that matter are .. should i run for cover there are a few enemies over there/That guy has a shotgun and he's running towards me do I run away or do I just shoot at him and hope I kill him before he gets close enough to kill me/Someone has thrown a grenade at me but I cant see where it landed .. should I move or stand still ? As well as many other gameplay orientated decisions
Most commonly used to counter ...
Any request of a respec
Reason it's silly ....
1.You pick a race at the beginning of the game yet straight away you can pick to spec into any races equipment even though you start off with miltia variants of your initial races equipment .. So the very 1st decision you make doesn;t matter :P 2.Skill points are unlimited you can spec into everything so aside from time your decisions mean nothing especially as you can gain SP over time and 10m sp a year without even playing is pretty handy, where are the restrictions based on what you've skilled too ? Where is the SP multiplier when you skill into your 2nd/3rd/4th light weapon/suit ? # I'm neither for or against respecs I just think this counter argument is weak
It's a half baked argument that would only actually mean something if as a whole it was true and right now it's far to wishy washy to actually be valid it's like deciding whether to use the upstairs or downstairs toilet .. yes it's a decision that you have to make but .. it really doesn't make a difference and apart from a 10 second stair climb its the same resullt
-TL;DR
Used by ...
Trolls/People who think their opinion is so important that they don;t even have to actually read something to give their opinion on what's been said
Most commonly used to counter ...
Any idea that doesn't benefit them
Reason it's silly ...
If you didn;t read the whole post you are commenting on why do you think the OP actually wants to know what you think ? Most of the time they will make statements that have actually been addressed later on in the OP and had they actually read the whole post before commenting TL;DR then they would have had their answer xD ..... I once had a comment of 'TL;DR this idea is stupid it would only work if xxxx xxxx xxxx' To which I replied .. 'Well .. yes .. I know .. that's why in the 2nd sentence I actually stated this will only work if xxxx xxxx xxxx and explained how it could be done'
Conclusion
Dumb people are lazy .. true story, If they are too lazy to read what you write .. don't bother to finish reading what they right .. since the post I mentioned I haven't read past TL;DR since
-'Get Good'
Used by ...
Trolls obviously
Most commonly used to counter ...
Any complaint about gameplay/balance issues
Reason it's silly ...
No one plays this game to get bad at this game ... If they wanted to be really bad at this game they could simply just not play and you can't get worse than that
Conclusion
People with sucky lives are usually sucky people online .. they can act like that behind a keyboard because they know you can't do anything to them so sadly all you can do is tell them that 'Get Good' makes no sense or that your so good at so many things you actually play Dust just so that you can say .. well .. i'm not good at everything I suck at Dust 514 and move on
Feel free to add any others you see or think of there' s alot out there |
Viktor Hadah Jr
Negative-Impact Cult of War
199
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
your calling out people for being trolls and to many people crying on the forums, but you just made an alt character just to bring us this thread. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
8524
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your decisions do matter, but its not just in the context of where you spend your skill points.
The more factors this game can lend into creating that culture of understanding that your mistakes can cost you later down the road wizens up the player base to their socioeconomic welfare in the long run. Its best to concrete this line of thought where possible. I mean what if they open up player trade, and you buy a Balac's AR for 20 billion when you meant to buy it for 20 million instead? In other MMOs you can petition back your misspent gilden coins, but in dust, congratulations you're victim to a market scam or your own idiocy by placing a buy order with 3 too many zeros and the GMs are going to smile and pat you on the head and tell you its part of the game.
Get Good is a two way street because there are players who exception-alize everything in the game. For example Dropships suck! Then here comes along veteran ace pilot and he completely PWNS everyone in a manner unimaginable. Now the get good phrase (to which I have been attributing trolling with) does highlight a few problems.
1. The ladder between starting and skill ceiling is missing a couple dozen rungs. 2. That something is conceivably very powerful in one persons hands can eventually lead to it being powerful in many other people's hands over time as more are able to reach the ceiling. 3. Buffing the said object as this convergence of skill ceiling is reach leads to some pretty horrific results on the field to the point its the only thing people cry about on forums. |
Spike Jin-Mei
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 20:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:your calling out people for being trolls and to many people crying on the forums, but you just made an alt character just to bring us this thread.
All i've done is point out 3 funny arguments and explained their flaws, I haven;t mentioned anyone in particular and you have to admit TL;DR and 'Get Good' are troll comments |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
6287
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 20:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Dropships suck! Then here comes along veteran ace pilot and he completely PWNS everyone in a manner unimaginable. Now the get good phrase (to which I have been attributing trolling with) does highlight a few problems. So you mean by running one kind of ADS fit one particular way with absolute focus and dedication and a fair share of lady luck on your side, it entirely invalidates the dropships issues because people obviously just don't understand them?
|
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
8534
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 21:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Dropships suck! Then here comes along veteran ace pilot and he completely PWNS everyone in a manner unimaginable. Now the get good phrase (to which I have been attributing trolling with) does highlight a few problems. So you mean by running one kind of ADS fit one particular way with absolute focus and dedication and a fair share of lady luck on your side, it entirely invalidates the dropships issues because people obviously just don't understand them?
Yes and No |
Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
323
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 21:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
You lost me at the title. |
Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
121
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 21:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spike Jin-Mei wrote: you have to admit TL;DR and 'Get Good' are troll comments
not always. There are situations where each of them are appropriate. but I'm posting this for the benefit of others, not because I plan to participate further in this thread. It seems like a rather trollish thread in itself, created primarily just to stir up agitation. |
Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
219
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 21:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Spike Jin-Mei wrote:-'Your decisions matter'
A favourite of every DUST Vet .. most notably the Eve players inexperienced in FPS games .. usually the decisions that matter are .. should i run for cover there are a few enemies over there/That guy has a shotgun and he's running towards me do I run away or do I just shoot at him and hope I kill him before he gets close enough to kill me/Someone has thrown a grenade at me but I cant see where it landed .. should I move or stand still ? As well as many other gameplay orientated decisions
Most commonly used to counter ...
Any request of a respec
Reason it's silly ....
1.You pick a race at the beginning of the game yet straight away you can pick to spec into any races equipment even though you start off with miltia variants of your initial races equipment .. So the very 1st decision you make doesn;t matter :P 2.Skill points are unlimited you can spec into everything so aside from time your decisions mean nothing especially as you can gain SP over time and 10m sp a year without even playing is pretty handy, where are the restrictions based on what you've skilled too ? Where is the SP multiplier when you skill into your 2nd/3rd/4th light weapon/suit ? # I'm neither for or against respecs I just think this counter argument is weak
It's a half baked argument that would only actually mean something if as a whole it was true and right now it's far to wishy washy to actually be valid it's like deciding whether to use the upstairs or downstairs toilet .. yes it's a decision that you have to make but .. it really doesn't make a difference and apart from a 10 second stair climb its the same resullt
I'm afraid it's your counter arguement that's half baked, especially in concerns to respecs and decisions.
If anyone could redistribute their skill points at any time, then why have the skill points at all? (If your answer is "exactly," then you need to go find a new game. Suggesting getting rid of the skill system is akin to suggesting getting rid of guns. They're both integral parts of this game's concept.) Only then would it truly be like picking what toilet to use.
If someone reads on the forums that something is overpowered and is likely to be changed and then skills into it because they want the easy kills, should they be able to change it whenever? No. Yes, steamrolling might be how they have fun, but there are plenty of games that cater to that.
The skill system is in place to reward those who choose to specialize, and specialization takes time and dedication. Yes, someone can eventually specialize into many different weapons, but only after time and dedication. They could also do it with just time (not playing and just collecting sp) but it takes 3x as long. If people were able to just redistribute their sp at the press of a button, then there'd be no point in devoting time to anything. Again, if you're not the type to want to devote time, then this isn't the game for you. There are plenty of other FPSs, DUST isn't the only one and thus doesn't need to cater to everyone. |
P14GU3
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
412
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 22:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
TL;DR Get Gud Scrub |
|
Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
742
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 22:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
My favorite: "I play Crawl On Dookie, and KDR matters..."
(Please, put your mouth on the business end of a Gold Desert Eagle and do whatever comes naturally.)
|
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
226
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 02:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Watch this clip for an explanation of choices matter. When the markets go live, the choices matter will become even more obvious because when you blow up that guy's tank he will buy a new one, which creates demand for the hull & mods and will bump the prices up ever-so-slightly for everyone. Every action you take ripples through the universe, but you are never "locked in." You never have a cap on your SP pool, so you can undo past mistakes by spending your future SP more wisely, your racial choice doesn't ever limit your potential. Choices matter and forcing limits on players are two different concepts that you seem to be conflating. |
AAGMUNDR
Reliable Overwatch Inc.
123
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 02:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
2bad4dust
Get gud |
Toby Flenderson
research lab The Superpowers
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 03:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
This is horrible. Allow me to address your counter arguments with my own...
"Your decisions matter" is not a counter argument. It's a fact. Decisions have consequences otherwise they wouldn't be decisions. The economics of this game require you to make choices and if you are wise you pick those which cater to your play style. If you disagree with this I implore you to skill all of your points into a fit that you will never use and then use something else. If you do not see where you are suffering from the poor choices you've made in the skill system then I suggest just ignoring everything else I'm about to say.
1. The first decision has a consequence. It defines your race and the dropsuits you are given to start with. If I'm going to skill into shields then I won't pick gallente. This might not matter to you but it does affect the game. Worst of all, even if this had no consequence on the rest of the game it wouldn't be an argument for "ALL decisions don't matter". 2. Skillpoints being unlimited would be an argument against respecs. If you're logic is that it's possible then it's also practical then I will turn that on you and say that no respecs ever should've been done because everyone in the game has the opportunity to have every skill. May as well sell the game on that idea: "Dust 514: Specialization who? Just play everything at any level".
Your main critique seems to be hinged on the analogy that any decision doesn't matter and back it up with a real life analogy. Are you kidding me? If you open that door then let's take a look at other real life decisions to make an analogy for. What should you study in college? Doesn't matter because you can always go back to college and study other things. Right? I really don't see why people don't understand that decisions have consequences and the consequences of the skill system in Dust seem to be more than these people can handle.
TL;DR is not a counter argument to anything and if you're taking it as one then I don't know what to tell you. Someone who writes a novel in a forum is prone to being passed over. I more frequently seeing TL;DR as a disclaimer made by the OP to summarize the post in a few sentences as to not be passed over by people who don't feel like reading a book. When used by another person who disagrees with you it doesn't mean anything other than "Your post was really long and I didn't feel like reading it". There is no argument in this and they are still free to voice their opinion regardless of whether or not they address anything you say in your post.
Get good is also not a counter argument. It's just something people say to brag. It's basically another way of saying "look how big my dust 514 **** is". It's a taunt and shouldn't be taken seriously as anything other than that. People complain about this game way too much anyway. If the "troll" intended it to be used as a counter to the QQ then I'd see what they were coming from in a lot of cases. Take everyone complaining about the scout suits being unusable. Clearly many people are still able to use them effectively (myself included). My counter argument to the complaining is usually that it's a specific role that is more strategic than most people are willing to take on and so they expect to run-and-gun with small survivability. This is another way to phrase "get good" in the sense that it just means they can't use it well and that it's not underpowered.
I'm sorry but I just have high standards for someone who makes an entire thread about how poorly constructed some arguments are and then fails to counter them logically.
TL;DR The OP presents poor arguments against these common "counter arguments". If you're interested in my reasonings, read my post above. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab The Superpowers
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 03:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
AAGMUNDR wrote:2bad4dust
Get gud
I just finished my giant post and then saw this and it made me laugh a lot. +1 for you, sir. |
THEAMAZING POTHEAD
Pure Innocence. EoN.
361
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 04:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Dropships suck! Then here comes along veteran ace pilot and he completely PWNS everyone in a manner unimaginable. Now the get good phrase (to which I have been attributing trolling with) does highlight a few problems. So you mean by running one kind of ADS fit one particular way with absolute focus and dedication and a fair share of lady luck on your side, it entirely invalidates the dropships issues because people obviously just don't understand them? Yes and No Unfortunately I know the guys who have the best dropships out there, and Im a very good pilot with decent(but not exceptional, because its not worth the sp atm) dropships myself, and unfortunately even those completely maxed dropships are still UP. Dropships attract the most AV, more than tanks yet have the least defense of all vehicles. Dropships aren't just UP, theyre completely broken, worthless, like trying to use the laser rifle in a PC match in 1.0, You're outclassed, and you're a joke.
If THE top dropships are still getting swatted like flies lasting only a few minutes because of the million factors that spell insta death for them, then they're UP.
Really tanks wouldve been a way better example for you, but dropships? No there simply isn't any "veteran ace pilots pwning everyone". Dropships are mega broken. |
dustwaffle
Commando Perkone Caldari State
538
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 04:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
1/10
Troll posts should be short concise and to the point. Long ramblings lose their effect and brings opportunities to be counter argued with better points. |
Spike Jin-Mei
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 05:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:Spike Jin-Mei wrote:-'Your decisions matter'
A favourite of every DUST Vet .. most notably the Eve players inexperienced in FPS games .. usually the decisions that matter are .. should i run for cover there are a few enemies over there/That guy has a shotgun and he's running towards me do I run away or do I just shoot at him and hope I kill him before he gets close enough to kill me/Someone has thrown a grenade at me but I cant see where it landed .. should I move or stand still ? As well as many other gameplay orientated decisions
Most commonly used to counter ...
Any request of a respec
Reason it's silly ....
1.You pick a race at the beginning of the game yet straight away you can pick to spec into any races equipment even though you start off with miltia variants of your initial races equipment .. So the very 1st decision you make doesn;t matter :P 2.Skill points are unlimited you can spec into everything so aside from time your decisions mean nothing especially as you can gain SP over time and 10m sp a year without even playing is pretty handy, where are the restrictions based on what you've skilled too ? Where is the SP multiplier when you skill into your 2nd/3rd/4th light weapon/suit ? # I'm neither for or against respecs I just think this counter argument is weak
It's a half baked argument that would only actually mean something if as a whole it was true and right now it's far to wishy washy to actually be valid it's like deciding whether to use the upstairs or downstairs toilet .. yes it's a decision that you have to make but .. it really doesn't make a difference and apart from a 10 second stair climb its the same resullt
I'm afraid it's your counter arguement that's half baked, especially in concerns to respecs and decisions. If anyone could redistribute their skill points at any time, then why have the skill points at all? (If your answer is "exactly," then you need to go find a new game. Suggesting getting rid of the skill system is akin to suggesting getting rid of guns. They're both integral parts of this game's concept.) Only then would it truly be like picking what toilet to use. If someone reads on the forums that something is overpowered and is likely to be changed and then skills into it because they want the easy kills, should they be able to change it whenever? No. Yes, steamrolling might be how they have fun, but there are plenty of games that cater to that. The skill system is in place to reward those who choose to specialize, and specialization takes time and dedication. Yes, someone can eventually specialize into many different weapons, but only after time and dedication. They could also do it with just time (not playing and just collecting sp) but it takes 3x as long. If people were able to just redistribute their sp at the press of a button, then there'd be no point in devoting time to anything. Again, if you're not the type to want to devote time, then this isn't the game for you. There are plenty of other FPSs, DUST isn't the only one and thus doesn't need to cater to everyone.
Actually the only viable argument against respecs is people specing into FoTM and this will continue to be the case whilst their are balancing issues the decisions matter argument is flawed when the ultimate aim is to be full skilled into everything the only affect is what you are using along the way, my main has 22m sp .. I am actually against respecs for the reason you mentioned about FoTM but I just simply dont buy the decisions matter argument ... right now it doesnt matter what I spec into and this is the case with most people at 10m sp + the only way i'll ever accept the decisions matter argument is if their are restrictions on what you can spec into or multipliers to other skills of the same tree if you've already specced into something else and restrictions on what you can skill into based on the race you picked to start out with .. you can create alts to try out the different starter fits
I do think it's funny that you think I have an issue with the whole respec argument .. I have an issue with half baked arguments being used and it's the reason so many people are still asking for respecs .. use a better argument and maybe more people will agree with you |
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3508
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 05:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Spike Jin-Mei wrote:Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:your calling out people for being trolls and to many people crying on the forums, but you just made an alt character just to bring us this thread. All i've done is point out 3 funny arguments and explained their flaws, I haven;t mentioned anyone in particular and you have to admit TL;DR and 'Get Good' are troll comments You forgot, "post on your main".
Speaking of which... post on your main. |
Spike Jin-Mei
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 05:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:This is horrible. Allow me to address your counter arguments with my own...
"Your decisions matter" is not a counter argument. It's a fact. Decisions have consequences otherwise they wouldn't be decisions. The economics of this game require you to make choices and if you are wise you pick those which cater to your play style. If you disagree with this I implore you to skill all of your points into a fit that you will never use and then use something else. If you do not see where you are suffering from the poor choices you've made in the skill system then I suggest just ignoring everything else I'm about to say.
1. The first decision has a consequence. It defines your race and the dropsuits you are given to start with. If I'm going to skill into shields then I won't pick gallente. This might not matter to you but it does affect the game. Worst of all, even if this had no consequence on the rest of the game it wouldn't be an argument for "ALL decisions don't matter". 2. Skillpoints being unlimited would be an argument against respecs. If you're logic is that it's possible then it's also practical then I will turn that on you and say that no respecs ever should've been done because everyone in the game has the opportunity to have every skill. May as well sell the game on that idea: "Dust 514: Specialization who? Just play everything at any level".
Your main critique seems to be hinged on the analogy that any decision doesn't matter and back it up with a real life analogy. Are you kidding me? If you open that door then let's take a look at other real life decisions to make an analogy for. What should you study in college? Doesn't matter because you can always go back to college and study other things. Right? I really don't see why people don't understand that decisions have consequences and the consequences of the skill system in Dust seem to be more than these people can handle.
TL;DR is not a counter argument to anything and if you're taking it as one then I don't know what to tell you. Someone who writes a novel in a forum is prone to being passed over. I more frequently seeing TL;DR as a disclaimer made by the OP to summarize the post in a few sentences as to not be passed over by people who don't feel like reading a book. When used by another person who disagrees with you it doesn't mean anything other than "Your post was really long and I didn't feel like reading it". There is no argument in this and they are still free to voice their opinion regardless of whether or not they address anything you say in your post.
Get good is also not a counter argument. It's just something people say to brag. It's basically another way of saying "look how big my dust 514 **** is". It's a taunt and shouldn't be taken seriously as anything other than that. People complain about this game way too much anyway. If the "troll" intended it to be used as a counter to the QQ then I'd see what they were coming from in a lot of cases. Take everyone complaining about the scout suits being unusable. Clearly many people are still able to use them effectively (myself included). My counter argument to the complaining is usually that it's a specific role that is more strategic than most people are willing to take on and so they expect to run-and-gun with small survivability. This is another way to phrase "get good" in the sense that it just means they can't use it well and that it's not underpowered.
I'm sorry but I just have high standards for someone who makes an entire thread about how poorly constructed some arguments are and then fails to counter them logically.
TL;DR The OP presents poor arguments against these common "counter arguments". If you're interested in my reasonings, read my post above.
Decisions that matter affect you for life .. if it doesn't then clearly it doesn't matter ... as I have said before If you were restricted by your initial race to only have a certain amount of skill options eg suits and particular weapons then yes that decision would matter but all it does is give you 4 starter fits ... as soon as you allocate sp your race choice becomes meaningless .. that's a fact
You completely missed the point of my initial post .. these are the worst counter arguments i've seen used and I don;t mean people just saying them I mean I HAVE SEEN THEM USED AS COUNTER ARGUMENTS I have had to put this point in capitals because you missed this point from the OP also you've missed the point about this being a humerous thread and instead have resorted to raging against me putting reasons why I think the arguments are silly .... I never said I was right ...
TL;DR The guy didn't even understand the whole point of this thread ...
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