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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 884	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:40:00 - [1] - Quote The Meta Game is the aspects of DUST 514, or any game, which extend beyond just shooting people in the face. It involves the relationships you form in the game and out of it. The Meta Game is played out on the forums and in emails as much as it is in-game through chat, voice, and in-game mail. For a lot of players who are new to New Eden, their first introduction to the term "Meta Game" will be when people are talking, or complaining, about the dark side of the Meta Game. An example would be the AWAXing incidents in the early days of Planetary Conquest, where a player could infiltrate a Corporation to join their Planetary Conquest battles with a squad composed of them and 5 guys from another Corp. This was done to grief the infiltrated Corp, to sabotage the infiltrated Corp, or even to hold the infiltrated CorpGÇÖs PC match for ransom. Another examples of the Dark Meta Game would be a player infiltrating a Corporation, and grooming the leadership until they are given a director position, with intent to steal from the Corp wallet or sabotage the Corporation. The first Great EVE War between Goon Swarm and Band of Brothers was won by Goon Swarm in large part because they convinced a Director in the lead Corporation of Band of Brothers to betray his colleagues and sabotage the Alliance. Some of you will see these types of events and think: GÇ£Cool!GÇ¥ But some of you who are new here are probably thinking: GÇ£Wait a minute. That is Griefing! IsnGÇÖt Griefing bad? If the Meta Game is just about lying and cheating, I am not sure that I want to be a part of that!GÇ¥ So I want to address these concerns and explain Meta Gaming in its broader context so that new players understand how the Meta Game adds to the experience of both DUST 514 and EVE Online. Meta Gaming is both about building stuff up, and tarring stuff down. Are you a builder? Or are you a destroyer? Either way, there is a place for you in the Meta Game. The Learning Coalition which includes Immortal Guides, BojoGÇÖs School of the Trades, and other individuals and groups such as the Mango group, is an example of the positive building side of the Meta Game. These people from different Corporations are working together to help new mercenaries learn the basics of the game, and then to help them advance to be the best players they can be. This is done both in game as experienced players squad with new players to show them the ropes, and out of game as training guides are posted on the forum to help explain the game to new players. Another example of the positive side of the Meta Game is DUST University. ItGÇÖs origins go back 9 years to the forming of EVE University in EVE Online. The tutorial in EVE at the time was very primitive and the game was very complicated. New players were having a lot of trouble. Someone decided that they would form a charitable organization to help new players learn the game. They created the EVE University Corporation and found like minded people to help. These people built an organization that is known to every EVE player today, and is widely respected. DUST University formed as a way of providing that same assistance to new players in DUST 514. I give the Learning Coalition and DUST University as examples because they are parts of the Meta Game that I have been directly involved in. But there are many other examples. In EVE, players have created their own banks and venture capital firms with thousands of customers. Some of these turn out to be scams, while others are legitimate. While some build for charity, and some build for profit, others build for power. In EVE there are Coalitions which control vast reaches of space. The conflicts between these coalitions, when recorded, read like an epic story from a history far in the future. There have been several intergalactic wars in EVE involving thousands of people flying thousands of ships, even single battles involving over a thousand players. This is not some fictional background story written by the developers for the RPGÇÖers. This is real history, real events, that happened in a virtual world. With the introduction of Planetary Conquest we are seeing the beginnings of this in DUST514.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 884	Posted - 2013.09.10 18:40:00 - [2] - Quote So, the Meta Game is about building organizations, and about epic stories of real history in a virtual world, but what about the griefing? What about the lying, the backstabbing, the betrayals and the cheating? Well, it is hard to have a good story, or a compelling game, without a bad guy. Or many bad guys. There is no Dragon in the last level of DUST. CCP does not give you end game bosses. CCP gives you a sandbox where players make their own stories. In EVE flying through Low and NULL Security space is exciting because there is danger. There is danger because there are pirates. Those pirates are real players. Without them EVE would be Hello Kitty in space. We need the cut-throats, the griefers, and the freaks to make the game interesting. In DUST we have Imperfects who like to play at being the bad guys. We have Grief University and others who took advantage of the lack of security mechanics in early Planetary Conquest matches to cause trouble for other Corporations. We will have more sophisticated and elaborate infiltrations, schemes and thefts as the game evolves. Now you must realize that while CCP encourages the meta game, they also consider it part of their games and will step in if things get too far out of balance. This AWOXing strategy was soon nerfed, just as CCP would nerf a blatantly over powered gun. It was too easy to infiltrate a Corporation and sabotage a Planetary Conquest match. It required no skill. Now that Directors can kick players from a match while the team is forming on the War Barge, it is still be possible to infiltrate a Corporation and sabotage a Planetary Conquest match, but it will require skill, patience, and timing. You will need to gain a directorGÇÖs trust until the battle actually starts. Those who are successful will feel more like skilled spies, and the respect they receive from the community for pulling it off will be much greater. While those who play on the straight and narrow will find that setting up their security procedures is just as much a part of the game as setting up their dropsuit fittings, and for many, just as fun. Finally, I want to differentiate between greifing and harassment. CCP tries to give their players the tools to work out their own conflicts, but sometimes people go too far. If someone is going so far they are preventing you from playing the game, or are causing you problems outside of the game, then you should put in a petition. CCP will get involved when someone truly crosses the line. Griefing is when someone plays the bad guy in the game, but Harassment is when someone uses the game to be a real life bad guy. ____________________________________________________________________________ Immortal Guides, supporting knowledge dissemination in New Eden since August 31, 2013.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1411	Posted - 2013.10.28 14:03:00 - [3] - Quote Looks like DUST University is presenting a lecture on this subject. I can attest that TrueXer0z is very knowledgeable on several aspects of the Meta Game within DUST and has the EVE background to be able to elaborate on where it could go as the game becomes deeper and more complex. For more information see: Meta Gaming 101 - Dust University (30/10/2013) ____________________________________________________________________________ Immortal Guides, supporting knowledge dissemination in New Eden since August 31, 2013.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2260	Posted - 2013.10.28 14:05:00 - [4] - Quote To much focus on the social meta game but decent stuff
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 94	Posted - 2013.10.28 14:37:00 - [5] - Quote Meta Game -- how to project unfulfilled doucheyness into a video game environment. Friendly fire abuse and team grief have no place in a fps, except to clearly illuminate players who are asshats.
Banning Hammer Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2030	Posted - 2013.10.28 14:48:00 - [6] - Quote You see.... this is what is wrong with this game.... FPS players just like to turn their PC/Console on after work, and shoot at things.. maybe have some RPG content so the full thing feels a bit more REAL.... and that IS IT. If you really want this Meta bull **** to success, you need to make Dust 514 an RPGMMO ... not a Lobby Shooter.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4771	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:16:00 - [7] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Meta Game -- how to project unfulfilled doucheyness into a video game environment. Friendly fire abuse and team grief have no place in a fps, except to clearly illuminate players who are asshats. People said the same thing about MMOs. Many people in the MMO communities don't like meta gaming and therefore regard it as taboo. Eve Online challenged that notion by embracing that taboo and making it the norm instead. Say what you will about the meta-gaming aspect of any game, but it's here to stay. If you don't like meta gaming then Dust is not for you. I tried games like Call of Duty and Halo. While those games are quite good, they are not good enough for me. The social interaction is severely limited in those game and the sense of impact that you make in those games is virtually non-existent. That and meta gaming is usually discouraged in those communities. But Eve and Dust have meta gaming and they highly encourage it. Because of the meta gaming, I wasn't as bored with the games as I expected. I developed social bonds with people around here and I feel that I'm making an impact now that I'm part of a learning corp that is backed by a well-established Eve corp. And Fox is right. Dust and Eve would be very boring indeed without the meta game. I can't bare the thought of having my hand held as I play a game.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 95	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:33:00 - [8] - Quote I play with a ds3 controller, I do not KBM. Social interactions aren't really the focus of console games, if people really wanted such deep seeded social connections why are they playing this instead of EVE? I think CCP was trying to reach out to console games with dust, but I would "imagine" maybe console gamers are console and not mmorpg players for a reason. I've played both, but honestly the social aspect of many big games is what changed me to a console gamer. TL;DR I hate my gaming experience being ruined by scrubs and people drama, why would I want that to bleed into my game?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1416	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:37:00 - [9] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: I play with a ds3 controller, I do not KBM. Social interactions aren't really the focus of console games, if people really wanted such deep seeded social connections why are they playing this instead of EVE? I think CCP was trying to reach out to console games with dust, but I would "imagine" maybe console gamers are console and not mmorpg players for a reason. I've played both, but honestly the social aspect of many big games is what changed me to a console gamer. TL;DR I hate my gaming experience being ruined by scrubs and people drama, why would I want that to bleed into my game? You make most FPS games sound awfully boring. No wonder popular FPS games have to come out with a new game every 2 years to keep your interest.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 779	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:39:00 - [10] - Quote some people are obviously confused by what metagame actually means

Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 95	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:42:00 - [11] - Quote I take my interest in improvement; not only does this game allow for guild and player skill improvement but also character skill improvement. I take genuine enjoyment over winning matches and trying to top out the score board and especially destroying vehicles. Apparently the game is boring and only player interaction is interesting? Why not skip the game and just find a social outlet? You're statement confuses me, please expand. Edit: also I'm not a FPS console fanboy, cod/mw/bf are boring because they never change, I like mmos primarily because of the amount and addition of content, dust fills that role, but most of the games I play are not specifically shooters.
JL3Eleven A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 1141	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:43:00 - [12] - Quote Reserved for when sober.
Knight Soiaire Mercenaries of Sunlight 2825	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:44:00 - [13] - Quote Immortal Guides Vs DUST Uni
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1417	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:46:00 - [14] - Quote It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 779	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:48:00 - [15] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4775	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:53:00 - [16] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: I play with a ds3 controller, I do not KBM. Social interactions aren't really the focus of console games, if people really wanted such deep seeded social connections why are they playing this instead of EVE? I think CCP was trying to reach out to console games with dust, but I would "imagine" maybe console gamers are console and not mmorpg players for a reason. I've played both, but honestly the social aspect of many big games is what changed me to a console gamer. TL;DR I hate my gaming experience being ruined by scrubs and people drama, why would I want that to bleed into my game? Here's your problem. The console industry is changing and forever will be as the market and console demographic changes. The console crowd is getting older, the controls are becoming more intuitive, social networking becoming engrained in lifestyles (Twitter, G+, Facebook, etc.) and now into our consoles with things like Nintendo Land, Nintendo's Street Pass, Sony's PS Home, Microsoft's player invites through XBox Live, etc. It's becoming more and more common to see strong social groups in many games including first-person shooters as players begin to coalesce around common interests. It's only a matter of time before meta gaming becomes the norm in FPS games as well especially in a sandbox universe that Dust is connected to.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1421	Posted - 2013.10.28 15:56:00 - [17] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings. It appears there are a faction of people that confuse metagaming with social interactions. Good point. There are many aspects of the meta game that donGÇÖt involve social interaction. For instance, if location had relevance in Planetary Conquest, then the decisions of which district to attack next would be part of the Meta Game. It would be a tactical decision that would look at a CorpGÇÖs resources and long term plans and tie that single match into the larger picture, so that each match is just one move on the meta chessboard. (I really hope PC 2.0 makes location relevant!)
JL3Eleven A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 1141	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:07:00 - [18] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings. It appears there are a faction of people that confuse metagaming with social interactions. Good point. There are many aspects of the meta game that donGÇÖt involve social interaction. For instance, if location had relevance in Planetary Conquest, then the decisions of which district to attack next would be part of the Meta Game. It would be a tactical decision that would look at a CorpGÇÖs resources and long term plans and tie that single match into the larger picture, so that each match is just one move on the meta chessboard. (I really hope PC 2.0 makes location relevant!) Really? To me the Meta is talking **** to the other corp to start something which I know I will win. Then the corp leader see's who we want to attack next. I guess FPShooter vs. Eve mentality.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 95	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:07:00 - [19] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings. It appears there are a faction of people that confuse metagaming with social interactions. Good point. There are many aspects of the meta game that donGÇÖt involve social interaction. For instance, if location had relevance in Planetary Conquest, then the decisions of which district to attack next would be part of the Meta Game. It would be a tactical decision that would look at a CorpGÇÖs resources and long term plans and tie that single match into the larger picture, so that each match is just one move on the meta chessboard. (I really hope PC 2.0 makes location relevant!) As spelled out in this post I have no problem with meta-gaming. Also I guess posting from my phone at work did not allow for me to be susinct enough to get my message through, I like playing with good people and communicating with friends, politics and sabotage add a dimension to games that just does not interest me. I understand it is by design that these are incorporated into the game, I don't think they add to the /gameplay/ if that makes more sense.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 779	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:08:00 - [20] - Quote anyway metagaming can be summerized easily in a single sentence: it is finding and executing the most effective way to perform something. in EVE/DUST terms this means: forming equal minded groups, using optimal fittings for different playstyles, engagement tactics and fleet/squad doctrines. how this looks like in practice in dust has yet to be defined imho. we dont even have the full basic content and every month something gets a complete change.

Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1143	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:15:00 - [21] - Quote It's amazing to see so many "Boring" statements about FPS games coming from EVE players. LOL The game that moves at the speed of paint drying. With the same amount of "meta" as playing "WOLF" with your mates. There is a reason why eve is considered niche. And it ain't cause it's the most exciting game play that people "just don't get" kinda game. One of my ladies played a vampire face book game that was just as "exciting" to play. CCP should look into it. dude... They did Oh yeah! lol
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1424	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:17:00 - [22] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: Really? To me the Meta is talking **** to the other corp to start something which I know I will win. Then the corp leader see's who we want to attack next. I guess FPShooter vs. Eve mentality. Yes, that too is a legitimate part of the Mete Game. I would classify it loosely under physiological warfare, picking your battles, and public relations (if you can make them attack so they look like the aggressor).
JL3Eleven A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 1141	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:19:00 - [23] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings. It appears there are a faction of people that confuse metagaming with social interactions. Good point. There are many aspects of the meta game that donGÇÖt involve social interaction. For instance, if location had relevance in Planetary Conquest, then the decisions of which district to attack next would be part of the Meta Game. It would be a tactical decision that would look at a CorpGÇÖs resources and long term plans and tie that single match into the larger picture, so that each match is just one move on the meta chessboard. (I really hope PC 2.0 makes location relevant!) faillogic. FPS players carry grudges. I do not care When, Where, or Why,..... If BHD EVER holds a district I will attack them. By myself if need be. That's the FPS mentality. Not kidding though.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 95	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:27:00 - [24] - Quote I could never get interested in EVE I guess that explains the disconnect with a lot of EVE -> Dust and just Dust players. I play to tanks explode and dropships crash to the ground. If someday that would require three months of preperation and sabatogue I certainly wouldn't bother with this game.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1143	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:34:00 - [25] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings. It appears there are a faction of people that confuse metagaming with social interactions. Good point. There are many aspects of the meta game that donGÇÖt involve social interaction. For instance, if location had relevance in Planetary Conquest, then the decisions of which district to attack next would be part of the Meta Game. It would be a tactical decision that would look at a CorpGÇÖs resources and long term plans and tie that single match into the larger picture, so that each match is just one move on the meta chessboard. (I really hope PC 2.0 makes location relevant!) faillogic. FPS players carry grudges. I do not care When, Where, or Why,..... If BHD EVER holds a district I will attack them. By myself if need be. That's the FPS mentality. Not kidding though. Some FPS players forget that game grudges are meant to stay in game. lol Serious tho, Those players give a bad name to FPS gamers. Harassing devs and players outside of games is not cool. I'll give DUST and MMO games points in that you guys don't have to much of that as we FPS players do. cough KZ, CS, BF, PS cough
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1427	Posted - 2013.10.28 16:35:00 - [26] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It appears there are a faction of people who want to be able to shoot at player controlled characters, but fear being forced to have any social interaction with other human beings. It appears there are a faction of people that confuse metagaming with social interactions. Good point. There are many aspects of the meta game that donGÇÖt involve social interaction. For instance, if location had relevance in Planetary Conquest, then the decisions of which district to attack next would be part of the Meta Game. It would be a tactical decision that would look at a CorpGÇÖs resources and long term plans and tie that single match into the larger picture, so that each match is just one move on the meta chessboard. (I really hope PC 2.0 makes location relevant!) As spelled out in this post I have no problem with meta-gaming. Also I guess posting from my phone at work did not allow for me to be susinct enough to get my message through, I like playing with good people and communicating with friends, politics and sabotage add a dimension to games that just does not interest me. I understand it is by design that these are incorporated into the game, I don't think they add to the /gameplay/ if that makes more sense. I understand where you are coming from with this post. From my experience in EVE I know that if you get in with the right group of people you can avoid a lot of the politics. I play with people who just wont put up with that sort of thing. As for sabotage, if you are carful with your security measures and are carful about who you trust, you can greatly reduce your susceptibility to theft and sabotage. It is generally the overly ambitious people who try to build empires and gain power for the sake of power, who leave themselves open to sabotage and topple in the most spectacular manner. Now one thing I want to make clear is that sabotage without a defensive counter is considered just as unbalanced by CCP as a super OP weapon. The AWAXing incidents were an example of this. CCP quickly added the ability for Directors to kick unwanted members while in the War Barge, and then once they had some development time they added special rolls to make AWAXing difficult. Protecting yourself against sabotage is not supposed to be any more difficult than perpetrating sabotage. That is a game balance principle.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1427	Posted - 2013.10.28 17:10:00 - [27] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: It's amazing to see so many "Boring" statements about FPS games coming from EVE players. LOL The game that moves at the speed of paint drying. With the same amount of "meta" as playing "WOLF" with your mates. There is a reason why eve is considered niche. And it ain't cause it's the most exciting game play that people "just don't get" kinda game. One of my ladies played a vampire face book game that was just as "exciting" to play. CCP should look into it. dude... They did Oh yeah! lol I say Boring because none of the work I put into an FPS game would mean anything as soon as the next version of the game comes out. Everything I do in the game would become meaningless within two years, so whatGÇÖs the point? You are right that EVE moves at a much slower pace. Even in combat the experience of being a Starship Captain is a lot different than being a fighter pilot or a solder on the ground. That is a large part of why I am playing DUST. I wanted to actually physically aim in combat. But, the pace of the game has nothing to do with the importance of the Meta Game. You can have just as expansive a Meta Game in a fast paced shooter as you can in a slow tactical game like EVE.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1427	Posted - 2013.10.28 17:14:00 - [28] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: faillogic. FPS players carry grudges. I do not care When, Where, or Why,..... If BHD EVER holds a district I will attack them. By myself if need be. That's the FPS mentality. Not kidding though. You sound like you would be easily played by this guy: JL3Eleven wrote: Really? To me the Meta is talking **** to the other corp to start something which I know I will win. Then the corp leader see's who we want to attack next. I guess FPShooter vs. Eve mentality. Oh, wait...
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4785	Posted - 2013.10.29 03:27:00 - [29] - Quote @Surt God End I remember seeing the twitter feeds of angry CoD players threatening a fellow developer's family with **** and murder just because an internet pixel gun had its stats adjusted for balancing. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.


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