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Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1482
   |
Posted - 2013.09.09 15:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Watching this video for BF3 you realize that we don't have it as bad as other games. What Dust has done is that they have applied more of a tracking assist/magnetism for their aim assit. So this is more of a feedback thread, but I wanted to suggest an new thought to see what people think.
Watch that video. It looks as if the ADS pulls to target as a function of of the hipfire crosshair radius. This made me think about the crosshairs in Dust and their connection to hipfire, dispersion, ADS, and tracking/aim assist...
It seems as if AimAssit only kicks in Either when your crosshairs are over another player OR when the crosshairs turn red. It is kind of hard to determine which. Either way, this leads to some conclusions.
1) You will be in the enemy crosshairs more often if you are strafing back and forth therefore.
2) Strafers will tend to be tracked from AA more often.
3) Movement leads to a greater crosshair radius.
4) If crosshair radius is tied to tracking assist, but NOT actual dispersion, then the user's movement BOOSTS AA tracking, but ambiguously affects dispersion.
The 'understood affect' of movement on hipfire is that you should naturally be less accurate while moving unless you are ADSing. Movement increases YOUR likelihood of being tracked via AA, but also possibly increases the rate at which AA activates, (if activated by being inside the crosshair radius.
This could be easily tested via crouching and hipfiring, standing and hipfiring, and strafing and hipfireing. Additionally, a weapon like the laser rifle does not have a crosshairs modified by movement, so it would be necessarily to test it to see how it is affected. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1482
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 16:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Also I was tracking some older conversations on aim assist and what the devs were doing about it. Its odd that nobody has brought up the devblog that CCP Wolfman wrote a while back:
Fine Tuning Aiming and Controls
However, we were told that Wolfman had another devblog for this prior to 1.4, that I don't think ever was published, or I remember seeing...?
Also there was the Cast514 With CCP Devs on weapons tuning
Regardless, if you read the 'Fine tuning' blog you can see that Aim Magnetism is tied to YOUR movement. I assume this means that if you don't move, you won't benefit from 'aim magnetism'. Additionally, since your crosshairs aren't really affected by movement while in ADS, aim magnetism presumably won't affect ADS.
However [b]'Aim Adhesion' IS tied to the target's movement[/b]. So adhesion may still be happening during ADS, but isn't really affected by crosshair size.
What is unknown is whether there are inputs for adhesion for targets...Can they be helped by user action or to what extent can they be mitigated by targets...?
What this is starting to mean to me is that the BEST way to apply damage (using aim assist) is to strafe a bit while hipfiring to help you 'acquire the target' with the magnetism, then use adhesion and ADS after firing your first few shots.
Conversely, if there is a known hostile that is looking in your direction, you are better off sprinting to a nearby safe spot if they are close, rather than trying to strafe them down. Strafing them, while they are looking toward you WILL HELP them acquire your profile with AA.
A better bet than frontal-strafing now is sprint-strafing. Which involves choosing an approach that forces a target to track faster than magnetism allows, then slowing to strafe and shoot the target briefly, and repeating this until you have gotten to cover, or killed the target. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1482
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 17:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
I've finally figured out my analogy too for the KBM vs. DS3 debate.
KBM = manual transmission. Constant, direct acceleration within pre-defined user-defined contexts. Power curves become intuitive.
DS3 w/o Aim assist = standard automatic transmission. Indirect control over acceleration. Gears change without direct input. Power curves can feel very unintuitive. Varies from car to car.
DS3 w/ Aim-Assist = premium transmission with UVT. Power curves feel more constant, gears change more smoothly and acceleration through various contexts feels more direct and predictable. Still not as agile and direct as manual transmission though. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1489
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 20:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am sure people are sick of AA threads by now, but I think I've made some new points in here about how to fight against it. |
Sigberct Amni
Goonfeet
Top Men.
110
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Posted - 2013.09.09 22:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I am sure people are sick of AA threads by now, but I think I've made some new points in here about how to fight against it.
You see, that's just it. No one on this forum is interested in a well thought out discussion. They just come here to whine, cry and vomit posts everywhere.
That said, well done on the look into aim assist. I have nothing to add but a thumbs up. |
SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION
RISE of LEGION
541
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Posted - 2013.09.09 22:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sigberct Amni wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:I am sure people are sick of AA threads by now, but I think I've made some new points in here about how to fight against it. You see, that's just it. No one on this forum is interested in a well thought out discussion. They just come here to whine, cry and vomit posts everywhere. That said, well done on the look into aim assist. I have nothing to add but a thumbs up.
There are those of us who browse once in a while looking for diamonds in the rough like this thread. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
302
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 00:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Conversely, if there is a known hostile that is looking in your direction, you are better off sprinting to a nearby safe spot if they are close, rather than trying to strafe them down. Strafing them, while they are looking toward you WILL HELP them acquire your profile with AA.
A better bet than frontal-strafing now is sprint-strafing. Which involves choosing an approach that forces a target to track faster than magnetism allows, then slowing to strafe and shoot the target briefly, and repeating this until you have gotten to cover, or killed the target.
So basically my Amarr suit is ******. |
Khal V'Rani
Nephilim Initiative
291
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
HMG Heavies are screwed unless you can pull the enemy into optimal AND get the drop on them.
Giant hit boxes being what they are...
Great post op. +1,
I don't know how accurate your assertions actually are but they seem about right to me. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1516
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Posted - 2013.09.10 01:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Conversely, if there is a known hostile that is looking in your direction, you are better off sprinting to a nearby safe spot if they are close, rather than trying to strafe them down. Strafing them, while they are looking toward you WILL HELP them acquire your profile with AA.
A better bet than frontal-strafing now is sprint-strafing. Which involves choosing an approach that forces a target to track faster than magnetism allows, then slowing to strafe and shoot the target briefly, and repeating this until you have gotten to cover, or killed the target. So basically my Amarr suit is ******.
I really don't think so. If you think that all assaults should be fighting inside the AR's optimal, then yes. But since Amarr suits get a boost to their weapons who's optimal range lets them sit where AR's hit for 30%-50% lower (or less soon). Then they have a huge advantage if they use it well to charge up their weapons and let them rip against the shields of all the caldaris out there.
Eventually if you stupid AR users get smart and put your ARs on gallente suits like they are supposed to be, with damage mods not sacrificing as much fitting for your tank, then you will be competing the way you were supposed to with them, then your armor won't be as threatened by the SRs.
But really Amarr Armor held outside of AR range means that AR isn't really to dangerous to them. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
302
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 03:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hmm, I dunno. I find the optimal range difference between ARs and SRs is miniscule, and damage applied is similar with aim assist on. |
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P14GU3
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
403
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Posted - 2013.09.10 03:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Hmm, I dunno. I find the optimal range difference between ARs and SRs is miniscule, and damage applied is similar with aim assist on.
SRs range needs a buff or AR needs dialed back a bit. I switched to assault variant quickly after skilling into it because I found the range was no advantage. What's worse, is the assault variant has even lower optimal than the standard AR. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1518
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Posted - 2013.09.10 03:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:SponkSponkSponk wrote:Hmm, I dunno. I find the optimal range difference between ARs and SRs is miniscule, and damage applied is similar with aim assist on. SRs range needs a buff or AR needs dialed back a bit. I switched to assault variant quickly after skilling into it because I found the range was no advantage. What's worse, is the assault variant has even lower optimal than the standard AR.
Right now getting a charged shot to hit while in the falloff of the ARs seems effective. I can go 1v1 easily vs ARs, maybe not dmodded duvolles at 55-60m in my adv logi 425 hp suit
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
304
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 03:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
My KDR has plummeted to ~1.0 since the changes. Here's hoping CCP will unfuck my mouse aiming in 1.5. |
howard sanchez
Sanchez Cartage llc
729
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Best thread going right now. Beren, terrific theories and great work determining where the sides of the sandbox lies. More like this! |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
873
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sigberct Amni wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:I am sure people are sick of AA threads by now, but I think I've made some new points in here about how to fight against it. You see, that's just it. No one on this forum is interested in a well thought out discussion. They just come here to whine, cry and vomit posts everywhere. That said, well done on the look into aim assist. I have nothing to add but a thumbs up.
Indeed.
None on this forums care to do tweaks and the like.
They just want to rage, and whine about how this has to be done, because that's all they can think as a good solution. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
873
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 04:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I am sure people are sick of AA threads by now, but I think I've made some new points in here about how to fight against it.
Maybe tired of the whole AA thing, but never tired of valuable and insightful posts.
+1, thanks for the quality research and analysis. |
Mila Onikori
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.09.12 22:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Great post, not many AA posts are well argumented and unbiased (as far as that's possible).
Very nice transimission analogy as well, which shows my personal problem as an average manual transmission user, it's hard to keep up with premium automatic transmissions sytems right now, since I'm not a racer but just a driver. |
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