DUST Search - My Idea For Teiricide

Canari Elphus wrote:

Ok, let me try to flesh out this idea of mine then.

Right now, we have two issues that face DUST.

1 - The New Player Experience - New players are forced to endure a meat grinder for a long while as veterans continually outmatch them with better suits and weapons. It takes a long time for any new character to acquire enough SP to be able to hold their own on the battlefield

2 - The Veteran Experience - At a given point, veterans hit a cap on what they can do with their chosen pathway. The only option they have available to them is to use their SP on something else even if it holds less interest to them than what they initially spec'd into

To satisfy both of them, you need to find a way to give veterans a way to find deeper experiences in the game while not being at the expense of the enjoyment of a new player. It is to this end that I am trying to find a way to satisfy both experiences.

My thought is that new players would be seen as sort of general infantry. They are good at basic tasks like generic combat but not much beyond that. They would be choosing more generic weapons and modules to aide them in that role.

Then, you have veterans. As a veteran progresses, they begin to find a specific role that they like and proceed to focus their character on that role. They can either chose to be broad in what they can do but not very specialized or focus on a particular pathway that gives them great bonuses but also carries drawbacks. With that specific role, the weapons/equipment they use (say your T2 or T3) becomes more specific as well.

The idea is that by specializing, the character would be able to make better use of the specific gear but that gear would be ineffective to someone that did not specialize.

Here is how my idea would play out.
Player X begins the game as a standard grunt (your medium assault type). They have fun as they can hold their own in this situation but then they decide they want to go beyond that and focus themselves. Player X decides that he wants to be more of the hit-n-run type that is more about sneaking up on an enemy and dealing a quick powerful attack than just standing their ground and going toe-to-toe like they have been.

As Player X skills into this pathway, their bonuses become more about stealth and speed at the cost of EHP. The suits/weapons/equipment/modules that they choose would be based on how specialized they get in that particular pathway. They would trade out the medium suit for a light frame because the light frame coincides with the stealth/speed specialization. They would possibly trade out a basic shield extender for a mix cloak/shield for T2 or a full cloak/no shield for T3. The weapons themselves would become more specialized as well. You would have weapons that gained silencers/muzzle flash limiters with a reduction in straight damage or you would have a weapon that dealt a lot of damage but gave away their location temporarily.

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Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 372	Posted - 2013.08.27 13:43:00 - [1] - Quote I posted this up in the CPM Chambers but I think very few people read it regularly so I wanted to post it here as well. I am for teiricide but only if its done right so that the game/fits do not become generic where each toon has fits for everything. To gain more diversity in suits/gear this game needs more diversity in the actual play itself. Right now its just run-n-gun while capping an objective here and there. A more diverse battlefield will allow for more diversity in suits. For tieracide to actually work, you will need to focus on the playstyle and not the suit (Assault/Log/Scout etc). It has to have a bonus/drawback to it Things like: Marksman - More gun stability when ADS but greater spread when hipfiring Defender - Bonus to EHP but gets a movement penalty Hacker - Bonus to Hacking & Speed but loses EHP Pilot - Vehicle bonuses but has severe infantry penalties Commander - Gains more strategic bonuses (extended LOS of enemies and updates as to what is happening) but is penalized in a combatant role CQC Specialist - Increases the damage of a weapon at close range but the total range is shorter and the fall off at distance is more dramatic. IMO - DUST relies too much on 'suits' and too little on the supposed character wearing the suits. Isnt that where the supposed 'skill' should be coming from and shouldnt skilling into one particular playstyle have a detriment to others? The same thing can be done with vehicles as well. Bombardment Tank - Gains AOE bonus to weapon but gets a penalty to distance where infantry will render. This makes the gunner rely more on teammates to tell him where the enemy is. Precision Tank - Opposite of Bombardment. Gains a bonus as far as distance rendering but has a tighter AOE for the weapon. I also believe that you should skill into a weapons as well. By skilling into a weapon, that weapon becomes more effective as you gain familiarity with it (less recoil, faster reload, etc) but by gaining the bonuses of becoming more effective with that weapon, you become less effective with others. It would not be a damage increase but an increase in things associated with the weapon. - Reload would be faster because you are more familiar with the feel and action of the weapon - Aiming would be easier because you are familiar with the weapon's abilities - Recoil would be less because you have become familiar with how to hold the weapon and what to expect as far as punch. It makes sense right? The more time (SP) a person spends with a particular weapon the better he gets with it but, at the same time, the harder it would be to use a foreign one.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2768	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:31:00 - [2] - Quote The correct spelling is tiericide, FYI. I'm not normally a grammar **** but when I see varying different spellings throughout your post it irks me somewhat.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3767	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:52:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The correct spelling is tiericide, FYI. I'm not normally a grammar ** but when I see varying different spellings throughout your post it irks me somewhat. That's a spelling not a grammar **. By the way, it's "various spellings" not "varying different spellings". It strikes the eyes wrong when I read it like that.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 376	Posted - 2013.08.27 15:03:00 - [4] - Quote Post is now fixed so that we can talk about the subject rather than spelling
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1651	Posted - 2013.08.27 15:23:00 - [5] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: I posted this up in the CPM Chambers but I think very few people read it regularly so I wanted to post it here as well. I am for tiericide but only if its done right so that the game/fits do not become generic where each toon has fits for everything. To gain more diversity in suits/gear this game needs more diversity in the actual play itself. Right now its just run-n-gun while capping an objective here and there. A more diverse battlefield will allow for more diversity in suits. I quite agree. Quote: shouldnt skilling into one particular playstyle have a detriment to others? No, it really, really should not. Trade offs should be gear based as defined by player fittings choices not skill based within the clone. Causing certain skill choices to be detrimental to other actions just shortens the lifespan of the game, because there is less long term content for high SP characters, and increases the frustration of the game, because now new players can actually waste SP on skills that are bad for them as opposed to now where all skills are useful some are just more immediately useful. Quote: It makes sense right? The more time (SP) a person spends with a particular weapon the better he gets with it but, at the same time, the harder it would be to use a foreign one. Even from a lore perspective this is inaccurate, not only are we immortal clones with lifetimes of battlefield experience but data is in many ways downloaded directly into our brains giving us a grasp of how to master a given thing, that's why we have "skill books" to buy so we can learn things and why we (at least in EVE) inject those "skill books" prior to use/training.. The simple, and most effective approach to keep in mind for tiericide is that there should be a sold and totally serviceable baseline (T1) with a verity of enhanced versions that focus on improvements to specific narrow areas (T2). There is not need to impose penlites whatsoever, the very fact that something else does it substantially better is enough. Purely as an example (NOT an actual suggestion) I present the following. Base suit/weapon has a damage of 50 and a RoF of 200. T2 - 'Rapid fire' version has a damage of 50 and a RoF of 400. T2 - 'Breaching' version has a damage of 100 and a RoF of 200. The above is oversimplified but it should illustrate the point. With that type of baseline once you begin adding in the other layers of complexity optimized fittings including the above items will be quite different and provide the same kind of functional net trade off on the field without compromising player choice by forcing restrictions onto the skill paths. 0.02 ISK Cross
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3768	Posted - 2013.08.27 15:38:00 - [6] - Quote I agree with Cross that drawbacks should be based on the module and suit being used, not on the player's play style. As another example of how to make the tiericide work, I would reference the nova knives since I know those best. (Standard) Nova Knives Same stats as right now Bonus to charge time when fitted on a scout suit class Penalty on charge time when fitted on any other suit class (Advanced) ZN-28 Nova Knives Same stats as right now Bonus to profile dampening when fitted on a scout suit class Penalty to profile dampening when fitted on any other suit class (Prototype) Ishukone Nova Knives Same stats as right now Bonus to sprint speed when fitted on a scout suit class Penalty to sprint speed when fitted on any other suit class Notice I didn't mention any bonus for damage. That's because the Minmatar scout suit and the proficiency skill book are already providing those bonuses and the knives are already powerful as they are and therefore don't need any extra damage beyond damage mods.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 377	Posted - 2013.08.27 15:39:00 - [7] - Quote Cross, good point but my idea is to make very focused pathways for veteran players beyond what we have right now. CCP said that this game is for the long haul but many vets are already reaching (or have reached) the limits of what SP can do for their desired playstyle and we are only 6-7 months past the last SP reset. The weapon thing was more of an example of how I think this could all work as was more of a side idea as opposed to my main point which was focusing on character specializations rather than suits. Its true that from a lore perspective that a clone can take on any different types of functions but it is easy enough to counter that with depth in a particular specialization. The more you specialize the greater the bonuses and tradeoffs would be for that role. If you are going to get rid of suit tiers then you need to focus on the character itself. Have the player 'load' a character setup before battle which would basically be loading a profile into the Warbarge to be used. Then suit fittings would be used to compliment that profile rather than BE the profile. The player would pick suits, modules and weapons that they feel maximizes the specializations that they have loaded. Does that make sense? Im just trying to spitball a way to make this game fair for new players but expand the game experience for veterans.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3769	Posted - 2013.08.27 15:50:00 - [8] - Quote @Canari Elphus That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Besides, what we have now in this game only makes up about 20% of what CCP already has planned to give us in the long run. There are still many other things to train for in the future that we don't have yet. 1. Cloaking equipment skills 2. Market Trade skills 3. [racial] Pilot suit skills 4. [racial] Commander suit skills 5. [more racial] Commando suit skills 6. [more racial] scout/assault/logi/heavy suit skills 7. Industry skills (manufacturing/refining/extraction/etc.) 8. [racial] Covert Ops skills 9. Siege module skills for tanks 10. Bubble shield equipment skills 11. [racial] Fighter jet skills 12. Projectile and lasor turret skills I can go on.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 378	Posted - 2013.08.27 16:22:00 - [9] - Quote Ok, let me try to flesh out this idea of mine then. Right now, we have two issues that face DUST. 1 - The New Player Experience - New players are forced to endure a meat grinder for a long while as veterans continually outmatch them with better suits and weapons. It takes a long time for any new character to acquire enough SP to be able to hold their own on the battlefield 2 - The Veteran Experience - At a given point, veterans hit a cap on what they can do with their chosen pathway. The only option they have available to them is to use their SP on something else even if it holds less interest to them than what they initially spec'd into To satisfy both of them, you need to find a way to give veterans a way to find deeper experiences in the game while not being at the expense of the enjoyment of a new player. It is to this end that I am trying to find a way to satisfy both experiences. My thought is that new players would be seen as sort of general infantry. They are good at basic tasks like generic combat but not much beyond that. They would be choosing more generic weapons and modules to aide them in that role. Then, you have veterans. As a veteran progresses, they begin to find a specific role that they like and proceed to focus their character on that role. They can either chose to be broad in what they can do but not very specialized or focus on a particular pathway that gives them great bonuses but also carries drawbacks. With that specific role, the weapons/equipment they use (say your T2 or T3) becomes more specific as well. The idea is that by specializing, the character would be able to make better use of the specific gear but that gear would be ineffective to someone that did not specialize. Here is how my idea would play out. Player X begins the game as a standard grunt (your medium assault type). They have fun as they can hold their own in this situation but then they decide they want to go beyond that and focus themselves. Player X decides that he wants to be more of the hit-n-run type that is more about sneaking up on an enemy and dealing a quick powerful attack than just standing their ground and going toe-to-toe like they have been. As Player X skills into this pathway, their bonuses become more about stealth and speed at the cost of EHP. The suits/weapons/equipment/modules that they choose would be based on how specialized they get in that particular pathway. They would trade out the medium suit for a light frame because the light frame coincides with the stealth/speed specialization. They would possibly trade out a basic shield extender for a mix cloak/shield for T2 or a full cloak/no shield for T3. The weapons themselves would become more specialized as well. You would have weapons that gained silencers/muzzle flash limiters with a reduction in straight damage or you would have a weapon that dealt a lot of damage but gave away their location temporarily.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3772	Posted - 2013.08.27 16:35:00 - [10] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: Ok, let me try to flesh out this idea of mine then. Right now, we have two issues that face DUST. 1 - The New Player Experience - New players are forced to endure a meat grinder for a long while as veterans continually outmatch them with better suits and weapons. It takes a long time for any new character to acquire enough SP to be able to hold their own on the battlefield 2 - The Veteran Experience - At a given point, veterans hit a cap on what they can do with their chosen pathway. The only option they have available to them is to use their SP on something else even if it holds less interest to them than what they initially spec'd into To satisfy both of them, you need to find a way to give veterans a way to find deeper experiences in the game while not being at the expense of the enjoyment of a new player. It is to this end that I am trying to find a way to satisfy both experiences. My thought is that new players would be seen as sort of general infantry. They are good at basic tasks like generic combat but not much beyond that. They would be choosing more generic weapons and modules to aide them in that role. Then, you have veterans. As a veteran progresses, they begin to find a specific role that they like and proceed to focus their character on that role. They can either chose to be broad in what they can do but not very specialized or focus on a particular pathway that gives them great bonuses but also carries drawbacks. With that specific role, the weapons/equipment they use (say your T2 or T3) becomes more specific as well. The idea is that by specializing, the character would be able to make better use of the specific gear but that gear would be ineffective to someone that did not specialize. Here is how my idea would play out. Player X begins the game as a standard grunt (your medium assault type). They have fun as they can hold their own in this situation but then they decide they want to go beyond that and focus themselves. Player X decides that he wants to be more of the hit-n-run type that is more about sneaking up on an enemy and dealing a quick powerful attack than just standing their ground and going toe-to-toe like they have been. As Player X skills into this pathway, their bonuses become more about stealth and speed at the cost of EHP. The suits/weapons/equipment/modules that they choose would be based on how specialized they get in that particular pathway. They would trade out the medium suit for a light frame because the light frame coincides with the stealth/speed specialization. They would possibly trade out a basic shield extender for a mix cloak/shield for T2 or a full cloak/no shield for T3. The weapons themselves would become more specialized as well. You would have weapons that gained silencers/muzzle flash limiters with a reduction in straight damage or you would have a weapon that dealt a lot of damage but gave away their location temporarily. Generally that's how it's suppose to be. Some of which we can already suffer penalties even now. Heavy suits sacrifice speed for durability. Scouts sacrifice durability for speed and stealth, etc. It's just that right now we have so many things that need to be balanced more it seems that these drawbacks currently don't matter.

Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 378	Posted - 2013.08.27 16:52:00 - [11] - Quote I understand that but the issue with the tiers is that the higher you get, the better the weapon is in all regards. Nobody will say that I prefer the GEK over the Duv for any reason other than the cost. I think this game would be much more balanced and enjoyable suits/gear/weapons were complimentary to a skillset rather than being the skillset.


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