DUST Search - New Logi Bonuses

Cross Atu wrote:

The Cal logi suit is expected and not uncalled for. The Amarr suit buffs are very nearly what I've been suggesting personally so no complaints there Blink

the overall trend towards removing even more eHP from Logi suits in "upcoming updates" rather than fixing the weak Assault suit bonuses concerns me more than a little. Non-'slayer' logi already have trouble surviving while actively doing their job and no amount of equipment buff is going to change that (longer range on the repair tool may be a mild exception to that statement but nothing to write home about. A substantial buff to injector range could help greatly and if that's coming then the race which gets it will be more protected. )

Two more fundamental flaws with equipment based skills for logi

Equipment WP scaling is still broken (until this is fixed most buffs to equipment will actually nerf earnings for support logi by lowering their overall potential. If the new WP system is rolled out with these updates then this won't be a problem, until then it is.)
Constrains player choice - I'm not talking about trying to play "slayer" here, I'm talking about how many types of equipment there are to support with and how if you bind each race to one type you artificially force players into builds with those specific types. In addition to making innovation more difficult by constraining equipment loadouts, a problem that will only get worse as more equipment is added to the game, you also make fittings more transparent on the battlefield weakening tactical options. Logi being yellow is one thing, logi being yellow and everyone knowing that X race equals Y equipment is something else again. Don't like footholds? Target the "uplink" logi. In a protracted firefight or trying to take out an entrenched position? Target the repair and revive logi. Want to be a 'slayer' in a logi suit? Proto the nanohive logi and run a core flaylock

Further there has been no counter balance that the Logi suits gain to compensate for the role wide nerf. Prior to these changes the two suits base stats were balanced when fittings were included. I spent a lot of time on the forums asking anyone to construct a Logi suit that was more powerful than an Assault suit of the same race after bringing the logi up match the on board values of the assault. The net result of the few fittings I ever saw (mostly constructed by myself or some of the folks in the shields vs armor balance threads) is that logi suits prior to the change would cost more in SP and ISK than an assault suit doing the same thing and would pay extra on top of that in the cases where they might be able to exceed the assault.

The racial skill buffs were a problem, mostly the Cal suit bonus and the buffs for the assault suits generally but those require skill reworks not role wide suit nerfs. So, what has been added role wide to compensate for the nerfs that are now creating an imbalance within the medium frames (or is the plan to never fix the racial skills and use the suit changes to counter that?

).

Ok I'm leaving this here because it's already long, but in short the current changes seem generally called for/positive but the described/intended balance presented in the Dev Blog seems to be ignoring the feedback forums and several key longstanding balance aspects. CCP needs to seriously reconsider this course and I hope there is someone on the CPM who understands playing support logi well enough to keep this problem at the forefront of discussion regarding suit balance.

My 0.02 ISK,

Sincerely,
Been playing support Logi since closed beta


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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1536	Posted - 2013.08.19 19:13:00 - [1] - Quote I'm still really hoping they scrap this system, binding each race to a single equipment type that way is not a good way to go for quite a few reasons.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1562	Posted - 2013.08.20 04:22:00 - [2] - Quote Lt Royal wrote: I'm sure theyGÇÖre not going to make the equipment limited to a said race but instead iterate on the racial bonuses; seeing as the Nanite skill doesn't do anything per level, only unlocks new equipment. That said: I hope they don't mess with the Winmatar Hacking bonus, I fell in love the very moment i counter hacked and objective; SO QUICK! I don't expect them to lock out the ability to equip other styles of equipment but iterating on the bonuses in such a way that you can racially expect what equipment loadout someone is going to run, at least if they want to take advantage of the skill buffs aka not get completely nerfed out of the value of the racial skills. If you can run a suit with 25% more value for the exact same piece of equipment, and you want to utilize that equipment frequently then you'll run the suit which gives that bonus so on balance it's the same thing. In EVE (yup, I'm going to make an EVE comparison) you can fit lasers on to non Amarr ships but, barring special pirate ships, nobody does it because the effect is so vastly inferior to either running lasers on an Amarr hull or running a more racially appropriate weapon on the Cal/Min/Gal ship they have. I wonder how Mercs would react if the AR had 70% more kick/dispersion, the Shotty had 60% less range, and the sniper rifle 45% more sway unless you are running the correct racial suit... If they iterate on the bonuses so that each equipment item gets a buff to the effect of that equipment and that every race gets them all but the type of buff to each item differs by race then sure, that's not locking players into a pre-defined box but, and maybe I misread, that wasn't the impression given by the Dev Blog. As to the minmitar suit buff I totally agree, leave it alone it's fine as is and should not be changed. It is one of the only buffs out there which is both not directly combat related and still of solid utility on the field. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1562	Posted - 2013.08.20 04:40:00 - [3] - Quote Since the subject is still active I'm going to quote my response to the Dev Blog Cross Atu wrote: The Cal logi suit is expected and not uncalled for. The Amarr suit buffs are very nearly what I've been suggesting personally so no complaints there the overall trend towards removing even more eHP from Logi suits in "upcoming updates" rather than fixing the weak Assault suit bonuses concerns me more than a little. Non-'slayer' logi already have trouble surviving while actively doing their job and no amount of equipment buff is going to change that (longer range on the repair tool may be a mild exception to that statement but nothing to write home about. A substantial buff to injector range could help greatly and if that's coming then the race which gets it will be more protected. ) Two more fundamental flaws with equipment based skills for logi Equipment WP scaling is still broken (until this is fixed most buffs to equipment will actually nerf earnings for support logi by lowering their overall potential. If the new WP system is rolled out with these updates then this won't be a problem, until then it is.) Constrains player choice - I'm not talking about trying to play "slayer" here, I'm talking about how many types of equipment there are to support with and how if you bind each race to one type you artificially force players into builds with those specific types. In addition to making innovation more difficult by constraining equipment loadouts, a problem that will only get worse as more equipment is added to the game, you also make fittings more transparent on the battlefield weakening tactical options. Logi being yellow is one thing, logi being yellow and everyone knowing that X race equals Y equipment is something else again. Don't like footholds? Target the "uplink" logi. In a protracted firefight or trying to take out an entrenched position? Target the repair and revive logi. Want to be a 'slayer' in a logi suit? Proto the nanohive logi and run a core flaylock Further there has been no counter balance that the Logi suits gain to compensate for the role wide nerf. Prior to these changes the two suits base stats were balanced when fittings were included. I spent a lot of time on the forums asking anyone to construct a Logi suit that was more powerful than an Assault suit of the same race after bringing the logi up match the on board values of the assault. The net result of the few fittings I ever saw (mostly constructed by myself or some of the folks in the shields vs armor balance threads) is that logi suits prior to the change would cost more in SP and ISK than an assault suit doing the same thing and would pay extra on top of that in the cases where they might be able to exceed the assault. The racial skill buffs were a problem, mostly the Cal suit bonus and the buffs for the assault suits generally but those require skill reworks not role wide suit nerfs. So, what has been added role wide to compensate for the nerfs that are now creating an imbalance within the medium frames (or is the plan to never fix the racial skills and use the suit changes to counter that? ). Ok I'm leaving this here because it's already long, but in short the current changes seem generally called for/positive but the described/intended balance presented in the Dev Blog seems to be ignoring the feedback forums and several key longstanding balance aspects. CCP needs to seriously reconsider this course and I hope there is someone on the CPM who understands playing support logi well enough to keep this problem at the forefront of discussion regarding suit balance. My 0.02 ISK, Sincerely, Been playing support Logi since closed beta Source
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1562	Posted - 2013.08.20 04:51:00 - [4] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: ... You know, I really hate that term slayer the more I see it. People need to remember that Dust is a FPS and there's no Geneva Convention in New Eden. That's a fair stance I'd say, it does border on the pejorative which is pretty ambiently bad form, especially when giving balance or mechanics feedback. Honestly the term "support Logi" isn't a whole lot better, it's less overtly negative but it still carries lots of generalized assumptions and often dismisses innovation or taking a fresh look at the role (is a guy rocking an AR and three types of hives running with his squad on the front lines a "proper logi"? Things like that, I'm sure you get the picture). Sadly I'm not sure what other terms to use to distinguish the aspects, but until the trend towards nerfing support is openly quashed posting responses, even hair splitting ones, is likely something I'll keep doing. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ I'm totally open to suggested alternate terms however
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1562	Posted - 2013.08.20 05:54:00 - [5] - Quote Jebediah Mayhew wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: The idea is to give bonuses to the equipment rather than restrict them. I suspect the manufacturer of the equipment is an indicator of which racial suit will get bonuses to it: Drop Uplinks: Allotek (Gallente), Imperial (Amarr), Ishukone (Caldari) - no clear winner Nanite Injectors: Wiyrkomi (Caldari) - clearly Caldari Nanohives: Allotek (Gallente), Ishukone, Wiyrkomi (Caldari) Remote Explosives: Boundless Creations (Minmatar) - clearly gallente Repair Tools: Core Complexion, Six Kin (Minmatar), Lai Dai (Caldari) - probably minmatar Active Scanners: CreoDron, Duvolle (Gallente) - clearly gallente This. Segmenting of equipment by race is a bad call, see my (rather lengthy) post above for more details.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1575	Posted - 2013.08.20 16:54:00 - [6] - Quote Lt Royal wrote: What's your thoughts if they ever decided to introduce Cross training GÇ£Pirate FactionGÇ¥ suits? Ahem! I mean "yes please CCP can we have pirate dropsuits that mirror the value and required investment of certain ships in EVE?" I would honestly be thrilled by this idea, I don't know if where there yet with the baseline suits being where they need to be for proper balance of the more specific and diverse pirate faction suits but I do so very much hope they are coming 0.02 ISK Cross Bad Heal wrote: Thus far, I've read that the Dev's proposed equipment bonuses are, generally, not welcomed. Does anyone feel the logi racial bonuses need to be changed or tweeked? I read that a few enjoy the current Minmatar bouns Quick deffintion to keep things clear, Role bonuses i.e. the logi 1 HP/s per level self armor rep are fine and should not be replaced with anything which isn't also a support to eHP, if they are replaced or retouched at all. Now to answer your question about Racial bonuses here's the list. Amarr - With the recent buff and the upcoming fix to armor tanking the racial suit bonus, which always made sense in theme and function, may actually become viable and useful. Further testing is required but I am moderately optimistic in this regard, once the bug that blocks skills from effecting reactive plates is fixed at least Gallente - This bonus is great in theme, and weak in practice. The slot layout of the Gal suits and the basic self rep from the role bonus, considering that it's an armor suit, could make it viable but the total value will need a buff, moving it up to 6% per level, or maybe 7% rather than the current 5% might bring it to where it needs to be. As it currently stands this bonus is wonderful when it comes to theme and flavor but lackluster when it comes to mechanics. Caldari - I haven't played with the new Cal suit configuration but on paper it honestly looks like they may have been over nerfed. A change to the prior racial buff was in order but taking a knife to the CPU of a suit that lives and dies, almost literally, by its CPU totals? With the nerf to its racial, the nerf to all logi shield regen (what was the mathematical justification for that again, I keep asking and getting dead air in response) and the nerf to CPU this suit is hurting. Now granted your question was about the racial buff, which in and of itself is actually not bad, its just that the Cal is now closer to where the Amarr was before the changes, carrying around a shiny racial buff that can't actually be employed to great effect due to external limitations. [Note: I'd like to reiterate that this is theory crafting as I have yet to find the spare several million to skill into Cal suits for testing.] Minmatar - As above I don't see how the nerf to all logi was warranted, and I really want a Dev Blog or at least post detailing why that was done because none of my in game testing or out of game theory crafting, nor even my on the forums fittings challenge, demonstrate a need to have done that. Ok, getting down off my soapbox the Min suit is fine as is, it may suffer from a bit of a weak eHP (shakes fist at unwarranted nerf) which was its real weakness before, but its fast, flexible and has a non-combat bonus that provides real utility. General comment - Racial skill buffs should be something which supports a broad theme not something that binds a player into using a specific piece of gear or even a specific 2-3 pieces of gear. If the new racial equipment bonuses applied a bonus to every type of equipment for each race that would be better. If every race as their racial gets a buff to every type of equipment but what buffs those are differs from race to race that would be serviceable. One of the big problems with racial equipment buffs however, even presuming that they're being applied in the more broad spectrum manner outlined above, is that the only buffs which provide actual utility increase the presence of the equipment on the field. Why is this a problem? Just look at the threads lately on the forums, in the last several weeks there have been threads about nerfing the injector, threads about nerfing hives (at least repper hives), threads about trying to polish the repair tool -- which it needs but those threads have drawn heat and hostility from other posters, and nearly countless threads all suggesting nerfs to uplinks (which aside from the bug haven't changed in substance since closed beta when there were no nerf threads at all). So the problem is this, if the buffs are meaningful enough to be worth something then they are going to be directly opposed by a large, or at least vocal, segment of the player base. If they are anything less than meaningful they will only amount to a net nerf. 0.02 ISK Cross [Note: I suppose there is an option three, impose some additional burdens on the current baseline of how equipment works and then supply logi with new skills that make their net use value for equipment higher than the current baseline. I'm still a bit dubious about taking the third route, but I must admit it could be a viable and balanced option]
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1575	Posted - 2013.08.20 16:55:00 - [7] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I only say this one thing to this topic. CCP do not touch my gall logi bonus. I will murder a thousand kittens. Their BLOOD will be on your hands. P.S. Taking in all stray kittens. They will be fed and pampered until CCP decides to change my gall logi suit bonus in which case they will be ritually sacrificed and their heads will line my LAV whilst I go on a murderous rampage. Just make proficiency skills for the equipment so logis can actually skill into their desired role. This would enhance the gameplay a significant amount for support oriented characters. Equipment proficiency skills: the logi skill tree ^This is a much better option than making equipment skills a racial buff... well maybe not the kitten part but the link at least
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1575	Posted - 2013.08.20 17:03:00 - [8] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Bad Heal wrote: Thus far, I've read that the Dev's proposed equipment bonuses are, generally, not welcomed. Does anyone feel the logi racial bonuses need to be changed or tweeked? I read that a few enjoy the current Minmatar bouns The logistics role bonus should be toned down, removed and applied to every logistics suit so it would be like 2/5/7/7 C/M/A/G. Then a more support oriented bonus should be applied as the role bonus. As for the racial bonuses they are fine except the Caldari one which isn't very useful, its alright but not very useful. This is also a viable option, the on suit buff to armor reps would just about counter the line wide shield nerf. I'm still not sure what specifically could be done as a support bonus which wouldn't limit/bias gear use per se, unless we're stealing the current Gal racial bonus but that might not be fair to the Gal users as it likely couldn't be given role wide at quite the same level, likely have to drop it down to either 15 or 20 rather than 25. I wonder BL4CKST4R, do you think that the Cal bonus would become more valuable if the CPU nerf were removed or at least reduced? (ps ~ while I haven't looked as heavily at the new state of the Cal suit I'm still pretty confident that in contest the Gal racial is the weakest of the lot, just based on direct comparison of the numbers) Cosgar wrote: Bad Heal wrote: Thus far, I've read that the Dev's proposed equipment bonuses are, generally, not welcomed. Does anyone feel the logi racial bonuses need to be changed or tweeked? I read that a few enjoy the current Minmatar bouns That's because this is being done to appease forum whining. My advice would be to spec into a sidearm just to be on the safe side. Thanks Cosgar, I think that prospect just made me throw up in my mouth a little
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1607	Posted - 2013.08.22 07:53:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Thanks Cosgar, I think that prospect just made me throw up in my mouth a little I don't want that to happen as much as the next logibro, but we need to be prepared. Worse case, you'll wind up with another fitting option and a way to troll assaults. Ishukone SMG is a beast too. Well while I'm adamant that such a change is unwarranted and imbalanced I did spend and entire build of closed beta running almost exclusively with the SMG so if such a change happens I may just have to use the positive responses from the announcement thread to making hunting list lol - I currently focus my efforts on ammo, reps etc but I sure don't have to do it that way I can always roll with tricks my more assault oriented alliance mates have taught me.