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Dusters Blog
Galactic News Network
402
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 14:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
'Our first piece detailing the missteps made with Dust certainly made the rounds. Evenews24 is kind enough to repost our pieces and some of the comments and feedback on their comments section were relevant, accurate and provided good insight. To many, at the heart of much of the problem was the fact that CCP promised big but delivered tiny. One fan said "There's a mysterious, inexplicable, and hideous disconnect between the vision that they hyped and the product they've created. To be on the receiving end of that makes me feel a little violated."
read the rest here: http://tinyurl.com/m3wvzdh |
Delta Iddon
No Free Pass
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 14:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dusters Blog wrote:Evenews24
lol |
Surt gods end
Demon Ronin
792
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 14:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
good read. finished my breakfast reading it. |
Reiki Jubo
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
199
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 14:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
excellent job. very good points. |
Mamertine Son
R.E.B.E.L.S
171
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 14:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thx for the post. It wasn't doom and gloom but certainly wasn't giving dust any slack either.
I hope CCP has a bulletin board in their office of important things people have said about their game.
One thing I really liked was Merc profile (awol %, DC %). I would also like to see other player's kdr or WP. Why is their PSN ID considered more crucial information about a player than how good they are at the game? |
Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
155
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 15:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mamertine Son wrote: Why is their PSN ID considered more crucial information about a player than how good they are at the game?
great question. |
Vespasian Andendare
Subsonic Synthesis Alpha Wolf Pack
109
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 15:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mamertine Son wrote:Thx for the post. It wasn't doom and gloom but certainly wasn't giving dust any slack either.
I hope CCP has a bulletin board in their office of important things people have said about their game.
One thing I really liked was Merc profile (awol %, DC %). I would also like to see other player's kdr or WP. Why is their PSN ID considered more crucial information about a player than how good they are at the game? Actually, the "Show Info" on a player is so VERY underwhelming on the amount of information it shows that its laughable. Where is corp history, WP totals, K/D, etc.?? Why isn't there more info shown?
To the OP--I have to wholeheartedly agree that the rise to Proto gear doesn't make sense from a shooter standpoint. It needlessly penalizes new players who continually go up against players who, stat-for-stat, are flat-out better than they ever could hope to be. The difference doesn't stop with gear, though. Increased sp and stats, as a result of higher level skills just means that the complex plate the proto vet fits is going to be *that* much more stat-rich than a comparable militia-geared player with no skills to enhance armor plate numbers. Indeed, even if that proto-skilled vet put on some cheap militia gear, he'll still be higher stat-wise to a similarly equipped, but lesser skilled, new militia player.
I agree the game should reward longer play time or higher sp. It's a great model for an MMO. It's just that Dust is an FPS first, and the proto vet wall that newbros hit when starting the game creates a needlessly difficult new player experience. And for these newbros, who paid nothing for the game and are looking to see if its for them, will likely just pass.
I get that the game is balanced around "all fives." I can personally say that I feel more powerful and better able to perform, and I'm only using all Advanced gear. So I can see the "all fives" mentality. I don't think that that knowledge, though, makes the newbros harrowing experience any less traumatic. I don't think it engenders a fun playground that people outside of Eve's sandbox will stick around for. "Why get redlined here when I can go play CoD and have fun not being gang banged in a dark alley filled with proto death squads and murder taxis?"
I could agree with a "tiericide" movement on weapons/vehicles/dropsuits/etc. to make the gap more about player skill and less about skill+gear. But what, then, is the reward for higher skills? I don't think that the 25% difference in performance that comes from skills is game-breaking. I do think its gamebreaking when you factor in the 25% PLUS the additional performance granted by the gear.
Maybe it's just because Dust is balanced around "all fives" that we're even having these discussions now, and when everyone collectively and on average moves into higher sp totals on the whole (say, we're ALL using all advanced gear) then these issues won't be so bad. Maybe it's that matchmaking should be implemented that groups and matches people according to gear/sp/other metrics for combat.
I think there's enough push on these forums to at least wake CCP up to the fact that the NPE is extremely unforgiving in more ways than one. And if CCP hopes to capture new players--which is the bread and butter of a multiplayer shooter--then they've got to do something to recognize that the NPE is suffering.
|
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
246
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 15:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote: I agree the game should reward longer play time or higher sp. It's a great model for an MMO. It's just that Dust is an FPS first,
basically this. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
700
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 15:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Imo very balanced and obviously with the best interests of the game and CCP at heart.
Kudos to Denny Fleetfoot for eloquently and graciously presenting the core issues. |
Mamertine Son
R.E.B.E.L.S
174
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 15:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tolen Rosas wrote:Vespasian Andendare wrote: I agree the game should reward longer play time or higher sp. It's a great model for an MMO. It's just that Dust is an FPS first,
basically this.
SO much THIS, in fact, all of my THIS.
ISK turned out to be a poor way of deterring people from fielding PROTO most of the time.
Probably bc there are two people who can run PROTO in the pub matches, the guys who play PC and make enough to play PROTO for an eternity and or the guys who only die once or twice in a whole match.
The latter happen to be good FPS players but their abilities are unnecessarily compounded by the reward from their PROTO gear. |
|
Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
909
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 16:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Good stuff.
It really makes me scratch my head when they come up with stuff like the TAC NET changes, but fail to address so many things we've been screaming about for a year or more.
I can't believe you didn't address the lack of team deploy for anything other than PC. To me this is the biggest issue currently. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
701
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 16:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mamertine Son wrote:Tolen Rosas wrote:Vespasian Andendare wrote: I agree the game should reward longer play time or higher sp. It's a great model for an MMO. It's just that Dust is an FPS first,
basically this. SO much THIS, in fact, all of my THIS. ISK turned out to be a poor way of deterring people from fielding PROTO most of the time. Probably bc there are two people who can run PROTO in the pub matches, the guys who play PC and make enough to play PROTO for an eternity and or the guys who only die once or twice in a whole match. The latter happen to be good FPS players but their abilities are unnecessarily compounded by the reward from their PROTO gear. Another lesson that CCP supposedly learned a long time ago is that it is always a mistake to balance using isk.
Designers have to balance the game assuming that in the future, some players will have access to basically unlimited funds.
Balancing has to occur at a deeper level, ideally built right into the game mechanics and progression mechanics. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 16:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
1m blast radius for massdrivers? I dont agree with that cause its a primary weapon and needs this. And the blast damage is not 80% from the direct impact hit. If you cripple the MD to that then you can give AR's the range of a nova knife. Makes just as much sense. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1681
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 16:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
I like the part about inflated KDs, that is a very good point. Having KDs so high is a symptom of poor balancing in game,which we can all so obviously see. |
Kushmir Nadian
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
310
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:1m blast radius for massdrivers? I dont agree with that cause its a primary weapon and needs this. And the blast damage is not 80% from the direct impact hit. If you cripple the MD to that then you can give AR's the range of a nova knife. Makes just as much sense.
Disagree. Its pretty obvious CCP are horrible at area effect weapons. The MD has to be carefully balanced just like the HMG so that it doesn't blow everything else out of the water. I'm a heavy but I've always maintained the HMG max damage has to be within 20-30m or its OP.
You've failed as a game designer when people aren't getting any direct hits and are getting kills from splash in a shooter. This isn't BOMBERMAN. |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
247
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I like the part about inflated KDs, that is a very good point. Having KDs so high is a symptom of poor balancing in game,which we can all so obviously see.
ur right. never thought of this.......kdrs really should have been the first clue. |
Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
155
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kushmir Nadian wrote:Bright Cloud wrote:1m blast radius for massdrivers? I dont agree with that cause its a primary weapon and needs this. And the blast damage is not 80% from the direct impact hit. If you cripple the MD to that then you can give AR's the range of a nova knife. Makes just as much sense. Disagree. Its pretty obvious CCP are horrible at area effect weapons. The MD has to be carefully balanced just like the HMG so that it doesn't blow everything else out of the water. I'm a heavy but I've always maintained the HMG max damage has to be within 20-30m or its OP. You've failed as a game designer when people aren't getting any direct hits and are getting kills from splash in a shooter. This isn't BOMBERMAN.
This. don't forget a splash sidearm dominated this game for months because u could aim at the ground near peoples feet and do almost 200 dmg. that's losing. |
DustMercsBlog
Galactic News Network
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:Mamertine Son wrote:Thx for the post. It wasn't doom and gloom but certainly wasn't giving dust any slack either.
I hope CCP has a bulletin board in their office of important things people have said about their game.
One thing I really liked was Merc profile (awol %, DC %). I would also like to see other player's kdr or WP. Why is their PSN ID considered more crucial information about a player than how good they are at the game? Actually, the "Show Info" on a player is so VERY underwhelming on the amount of information it shows that its laughable. Where is corp history, WP totals, K/D, etc.?? Why isn't there more info shown? To the OP--I have to wholeheartedly agree that the rise to Proto gear doesn't make sense from a shooter standpoint. It needlessly penalizes new players who continually go up against players who, stat-for-stat, are flat-out better than they ever could hope to be. The difference doesn't stop with gear, though. Increased sp and stats, as a result of higher level skills just means that the complex plate the proto vet fits is going to be *that* much more stat-rich than a comparable militia-geared player with no skills to enhance armor plate numbers. Indeed, even if that proto-skilled vet put on some cheap militia gear, he'll still be higher stat-wise to a similarly equipped, but lesser skilled, new militia player. I agree the game should reward longer play time or higher sp. It's a great model for an MMO. It's just that Dust is an FPS first, and the proto vet wall that newbros hit when starting the game creates a needlessly difficult new player experience. And for these newbros, who paid nothing for the game and are looking to see if its for them, will likely just pass. I get that the game is balanced around "all fives." I can personally say that I feel more powerful and better able to perform, and I'm only using all Advanced gear. So I can see the "all fives" mentality. I don't think that that knowledge, though, makes the newbros harrowing experience any less traumatic. I don't think it engenders a fun playground that people outside of Eve's sandbox will stick around for. "Why get redlined here when I can go play CoD and have fun not being gang banged in a dark alley filled with proto death squads and murder taxis?"I could agree with a "tiericide" movement on weapons/vehicles/dropsuits/etc. to make the gap more about player skill and less about skill+gear. But what, then, is the reward for higher skills? I don't think that the 25% difference in performance that comes from skills is game-breaking. I do think its gamebreaking when you factor in the 25% PLUS the additional performance granted by the gear. Maybe it's just because Dust is balanced around "all fives" that we're even having these discussions now, and when everyone collectively and on average moves into higher sp totals on the whole (say, we're ALL using all advanced gear) then these issues won't be so bad. Maybe it's that matchmaking should be implemented that groups and matches people according to gear/sp/other metrics for combat. I think there's enough push on these forums to at least wake CCP up to the fact that the NPE is extremely unforgiving in more ways than one. And if CCP hopes to capture new players--which is the bread and butter of a multiplayer shooter--then they've got to do something to recognize that the NPE is suffering.
all good questions, our stance is that the health gap [hp, shileds, armor] is at the heart of what makes Dust gameplay bad. we would also like to see a system where weapons only have a slight upgrade in dmg but that have subtle advantages [like faster reloads, strafe speeds and less cp/pg cost] and more customization.
our stock example is an exile AR with 32dmg, 40 rounds and iron sight whereas the gek would do 33dmg with 60 rounds and red dot sight. we also like the idea of std weapons having 1 customization slot, adv weapons 2 and prototype 3. this takes the place of the customization largely lost from shields and health. Now a duvolle user can add on their choice of sight, stabilizer and extended clip if they choose.
instead of huge gaps in protection we think a system where the shield values are 22, 25 and 28. armor values are 65, 68 and 70 and instead the real bonus lies in the fact that better extenders regenerate faster and where better plates repair faster and are lighter. This provides better gameplay instead of the alternative of giving higher sp players 4 times the health of a new player. |
DustMercsBlog
Galactic News Network
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
we also prefer a system where scouts have 100 base health, logis 120 [and are the second fastest suits in the game] assaults 150 and heavies 450. |
crazy space 1
Unkn0wn Killers
1565
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dusters Blog wrote:'Our first piece detailing the missteps made with Dust certainly made the rounds. Evenews24 is kind enough to repost our pieces and some of the comments and feedback on their comments section were relevant, accurate and provided good insight. To many, at the heart of much of the problem was the fact that CCP promised big but delivered tiny. One fan said "There's a mysterious, inexplicable, and hideous disconnect between the vision that they hyped and the product they've created. To be on the receiving end of that makes me feel a little violated." read the rest here: http://tinyurl.com/m3wvzdh well put |
|
Mamertine Son
R.E.B.E.L.S
180
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 18:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
DustMercsBlog wrote:
our stock example is an exile AR with 32dmg, 40 rounds and iron sight whereas the gek would do 33dmg with 60 rounds and red dot sight. we also like the idea of std weapons having 1 customization slot, adv weapons 2 and prototype 3. this takes the place of the customization largely lost from shields and health. Now a duvolle user can add on their choice of sight, stabilizer and extended clip if they choose.
instead of huge gaps in protection we think a system where the shield values are 22, 25 and 28. armor values are 65, 68 and 70 and instead the real bonus lies in the fact that better extenders regenerate faster and where better plates repair faster and are lighter. This provides better gameplay instead of the alternative of giving higher sp players 4 times the health of a new player.
+1, changes like these would instantly make this better for new players and vets. |
DustMercsBlog
Galactic News Network
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 18:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
thank u. we hope they consider it. |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
247
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 18:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
exactly.....now idiots like takashiro kashuken will cry about their tanks not being invincible, but the gm will be better as a whole. the better player would win out rather than the protobear eating plasma rounds and laughing. |
Ku Shala
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
304
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 19:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Good stuff.
It really makes me scratch my head when they come up with stuff like the TAC NET changes, but fail to address so many things we've been screaming about for a year or more.
I can't believe you didn't address the lack of team deploy for anything other than PC. To me this is the biggest issue currently. 16 man deploy is on its way for merc battles |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
704
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 20:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
DustMercsBlog wrote:Vespasian Andendare wrote:Mamertine Son wrote:Thx for the post. It wasn't doom and gloom but certainly wasn't giving dust any slack either.
I hope CCP has a bulletin board in their office of important things people have said about their game.
One thing I really liked was Merc profile (awol %, DC %). I would also like to see other player's kdr or WP. Why is their PSN ID considered more crucial information about a player than how good they are at the game? Actually, the "Show Info" on a player is so VERY underwhelming on the amount of information it shows that its laughable. Where is corp history, WP totals, K/D, etc.?? Why isn't there more info shown? To the OP--I have to wholeheartedly agree that the rise to Proto gear doesn't make sense from a shooter standpoint. It needlessly penalizes new players who continually go up against players who, stat-for-stat, are flat-out better than they ever could hope to be. The difference doesn't stop with gear, though. Increased sp and stats, as a result of higher level skills just means that the complex plate the proto vet fits is going to be *that* much more stat-rich than a comparable militia-geared player with no skills to enhance armor plate numbers. Indeed, even if that proto-skilled vet put on some cheap militia gear, he'll still be higher stat-wise to a similarly equipped, but lesser skilled, new militia player. I agree the game should reward longer play time or higher sp. It's a great model for an MMO. It's just that Dust is an FPS first, and the proto vet wall that newbros hit when starting the game creates a needlessly difficult new player experience. And for these newbros, who paid nothing for the game and are looking to see if its for them, will likely just pass. I get that the game is balanced around "all fives." I can personally say that I feel more powerful and better able to perform, and I'm only using all Advanced gear. So I can see the "all fives" mentality. I don't think that that knowledge, though, makes the newbros harrowing experience any less traumatic. I don't think it engenders a fun playground that people outside of Eve's sandbox will stick around for. "Why get redlined here when I can go play CoD and have fun not being gang banged in a dark alley filled with proto death squads and murder taxis?"I could agree with a "tiericide" movement on weapons/vehicles/dropsuits/etc. to make the gap more about player skill and less about skill+gear. But what, then, is the reward for higher skills? I don't think that the 25% difference in performance that comes from skills is game-breaking. I do think its gamebreaking when you factor in the 25% PLUS the additional performance granted by the gear. Maybe it's just because Dust is balanced around "all fives" that we're even having these discussions now, and when everyone collectively and on average moves into higher sp totals on the whole (say, we're ALL using all advanced gear) then these issues won't be so bad. Maybe it's that matchmaking should be implemented that groups and matches people according to gear/sp/other metrics for combat. I think there's enough push on these forums to at least wake CCP up to the fact that the NPE is extremely unforgiving in more ways than one. And if CCP hopes to capture new players--which is the bread and butter of a multiplayer shooter--then they've got to do something to recognize that the NPE is suffering. all good questions, our stance is that the health gap [hp, shileds, armor] is at the heart of what makes Dust gameplay bad. we would also like to see a system where weapons only have a slight upgrade in dmg but that have subtle advantages [like faster reloads, strafe speeds and less cp/pg cost] and more customization. our stock example is an exile AR with 32dmg, 40 rounds and iron sight whereas the gek would do 33dmg with 60 rounds and red dot sight. we also like the idea of std weapons having 1 customization slot, adv weapons 2 and prototype 3. this takes the place of the customization largely lost from shields and health. Now a duvolle user can add on their choice of sight, stabilizer and extended clip if they choose. instead of huge gaps in protection we think a system where the shield values are 22, 25 and 28. armor values are 65, 68 and 70 and instead the real bonus lies in the fact that better extenders regenerate faster and where better plates repair faster and are lighter. This provides better gameplay instead of the alternative of giving higher sp players 4 times the health of a new player. I respectfully disagree in regards to the hp gap.
Any average-to-good veteran in DUST can roll a new toon, run the starter assault fit, spend none of the started skillpoints, and prolly break even or better in terms of KDR in pub matches, and more importantly contribute positively to their team and make ISK at a healthy rate.
The crucial difference isn't hp or gun game, it's DUST-specific knowledge, and that's why i believe strongly in a thorough, quality mandatory walkthrough for new players.
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
148
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 21:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dusters Blog wrote:'Our first piece detailing the missteps made with Dust certainly made the rounds. Evenews24 is kind enough to repost our pieces and some of the comments and feedback on their comments section were relevant, accurate and provided good insight. To many, at the heart of much of the problem was the fact that CCP promised big but delivered tiny. One fan said "There's a mysterious, inexplicable, and hideous disconnect between the vision that they hyped and the product they've created. To be on the receiving end of that makes me feel a little violated." read the rest here: http://tinyurl.com/m3wvzdh
Lol, that statement reminds me of everything I've seen about EVE. The actual gameplay and the lack of full development on stuff CCP hypes is horrible. I only go back to EVE now for nostalgia and to fiddle with new mechanics... at least the features I can play around with without giving up my real life and sucking some tryhard's **** to be in their megasuperlightning coalition. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
705
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 23:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
I see maybe a tendency to want to flatten suits, weapons and skills here, all in service of the New Player Experience.
I think that's a mistake. I think the deep end of the pool in Dust needs to be so deep that it has a wormhole in the bottom of it that will transport any player who wants to try it straight to a Nullsec alliance battle over strategic resources worth trillions of ISK, where they will face 100 million skillpoint vets wearing 20 million ISK worth of officer gear.
Now that scenario unlikely and unrealistic, but it should be in principle possible for any new player depending only on their personal choice.
The converse should be impossible. It should be practically impossible for those nullsec vets to pound on noobs.
But that has nothing to do with gear or skill progression. DUST doesn't need to be fair, DUST does need to be just. Peeps can handle the rest on their own.
Afterword: This is the issue that it is for us because DUST is currently constrained to a lobby shooter match structure. We know CCP want to take it open world(ha! once they figure out how to allow us to run without tripping on blades of grass, maybe) at which point there should be a lot more room in the ecosystem for disparate sp characters to coexist. |
Canari Elphus
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
315
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 23:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
If you want the NPE to be better, you have to also look at the VPE (Veteran Player Experience) as a 'balance' as well. If you do not make this game continuously interesting as players spend more and more time in it, nobody will stay. Everyone will get bored and wander off as soon as they realize that they are grinding for nothing.
In an RPG type scenario, you level up so that you can take on harder missions and get better rewards. You leave the new players to the simpler things where they can flourish on their own and strive to follow in the vets' footsteps. That is what DUST is lacking. There is no place for vets to go for grander challenges and better rewards. All they have are endless cycles of pub matches lumped together with newberries.
Thats why, the more I think about it, the more I realize that CCP needs to rethink the entire setup for this game. To do that, there are some fundamental questions that need to be answered.
- What does the SP lead to? Why do vets NEED to be more skilled? - What makes someone want to push themselves to gain new skills other than just holding their own in pub matches? - What is the pathway of a merc? Is it just simple little pub matches with lolPC being the end game? - Why should EVE players care about DUST and vice versa? Why should either side care about the politics of the other? - Where is the 'building something' to this game? Right now the only thing that controlling districts does is stockpile ISK but what is the ISK for? CCPs idea for this cannot be to just fund pubstomping can it? |
Cyzad4
Blackfish Corp.
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 00:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yes, yes, yes annnnnnd yes
Very nicely put, curious to see if CCP would ever get around to answering any of the "why this wasn't forseen" bits... not going to hold my breath though.
and thanks for reminding me how much busted ladders **** me off lol, I'd managed to tune it out (yes I realize how bad it is that I need to learn to tune out basic gameplay issues) |
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