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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
125
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 13:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
EDIT: This was a post made by me on this thread.
For the sake of argument here are some comparison builds between Gallente and Caldari suits.
These are all builds I made using the amazing fitting spreadsheet found in this thread.
Caldari Logistics NO racial EHP: 843
Caldari Logistics racial EHP: 934 <-- holy sh...
Gallente Logistics EHP: 698
Caldari Assault EHP: 846
Gallente Assault EHP: 773
Gallente Assault 6% speed buff EHP: 828
Gallente Logistics 6% speed buff EHP: 753
CaLogi NO racial -1 High slot EHP: 770
As you can see when it comes to Total HP the shield tanks come out on top, aside from having masive EHP they can sacrifice a small amount for damage mods and still stay on top, as for the Gallente suits if they were to try and come close to the Caldari, and fail might I add, they have to rely on shield tanking. Let me compare the Assault suits, the only way for the Gallente Assault to come close to the Caldari assault in total EHP would be by upgrading the two basic armor modules to one enhanced and one complex, but that comes at a crippling 16% speed reduction, placing the Caldari Assault at 4.72m/s and the Gallente Assault at 4.34m/s. By buffing the base speed of the Gallente suits I was able to balance them about enough where the Caldari suits still come out a tiny bit better but the difference is negligible, on the other hand a speed buff for the GaLogi didn't help balance the Logi suits, what did help is removing 1 shield slot from the Caldari No racial suit bringing it down to 770 EHP.
Now some may agree that this solves the problem of shield vs armor, but it doesn't it actually shifts the disadvantage to armor elsewhere, for the Gallente suits to run competitively with the Caldari suits in this manner, they have to sacrifice a lot of CPU/PG which puts the Caldari on top in diversibility. So the only way to mitigate this is to buff the CPU/PG of the Gallente suits but there is another major problem with this, that is that what I have proposed only fixes armor tanking for the Gallente... But on the brighter side now you can now see first hand how much better shields are, and how OP the CaLogi really is.
Also you can see the Caldari Assault and the Caldari Logistic (No racial) have about the same EHP which is ridiculous but that is a post for another thread, although the Caldari No racial -1 High slot is the proper way of fixing the Class... |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
126
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 14:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
EDIT: The original purpose of this post was to compare the Gallente and Caldari suits, another post asked for the Amarr and Minmatar suits so I added them, after doing so i've noticed a major imbalance within suits themselves. Specifically the Minmatar suit having the highest EHP and Highest speed, if the CaLogi were to be nerfed the Minmatar assault will be the next OP suit.
When it comes to balancing suits, the distribution of EHP to Speed should be like so:
Amarr EHP: High Speed: Low
Gallente EHP: Medium Speed: Medium
Caldari EHP:Medium Speed: Medium
Minmatar EHP:Low Speed: High
^ This is how the game originally meant it to be, by looking at the Base Shield/Armor ratios. But the addition/reduction of slots to the suits imbalanced them.
Original paragraph, before Amarr and Minmatar data: As you can see when it comes to Total HP the shield tanks come out on top, aside from having masive EHP they can sacrifice a small amount for damage mods and still stay on top, as for the Gallente suits if they were to try and come close to the Caldari, and fail might I add, they have to rely on shield tanking. Let me compare the Assault suits, the only way for the Gallente Assault to come close to the Caldari assault in total EHP would be by upgrading the two basic armor modules to one enhanced and one complex, but that comes at a crippling 16% speed reduction, placing the Caldari Assault at 4.72m/s and the Gallente Assault at 4.34m/s. By buffing the base speed of the Gallente suits I was able to balance them about enough where the Caldari suits still come out a tiny bit better but the difference is negligible, on the other hand a speed buff for the GaLogi didn't help balance the Logi suits, what did help is removing 1 shield slot from the Caldari No racial suit bringing it down to 770 EHP.
Now some may agree that this solves the problem of shield vs armor, but it doesn't it actually shifts the disadvantage to armor elsewhere, for the Gallente suits to run competitively with the Caldari suits in this manner, they have to sacrifice a lot of CPU/PG which puts the Caldari on top in diversibility. So the only way to mitigate this is to buff the CPU/PG of the Gallente suits but there is another major problem with this, that is that what I have proposed only fixes armor tanking for the Gallente... But on the brighter side now you can now see first hand how much better shields are, and how OP the CaLogi really is.
Also you can see the Caldari Assault and the Caldari Logistic (No racial) have about the same EHP which is ridiculous but that is a post for another thread, although the Caldari No racial -1 High slot is the proper way of fixing the Class... |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
546
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 14:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
This seems to ignore other stats on the suits. The logistics are theoretically sacrificing CPU/PG to their equipment slots (unless they're forgoing equipment entirely), and all the assault suits are going to have better shield regen than logistics.
The Amarr being both the slowest, but only being beefier without modules involved is problematic. However, there's lingering issues of other sorts there, like the Amarr logistics being the only logi with the same H/L slot numbers as the assault, and have less PG that the assault as well.
However, comparing Gallente and Caldari on raw EHP while going all complex shield extenders, but using basic armor plates is somewhat disingenuous. The theoretical point with armor is that you sacrifice speed for HP, and a 1:1 comparison with all complex armor and complex shields would roll out a bit differently.
Of course, we're still supposed to see more "types" of armor modules too (ones with built-in reps, and ones with no move penalty), which might further change the landscape there. It's possible they were balanced for modules we haven't seen yet. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
126
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 14:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:This seems to ignore other stats on the suits. The logistics are theoretically sacrificing CPU/PG to their equipment slots (unless they're forgoing equipment entirely), and all the assault suits are going to have better shield regen than logistics.
Logistics have higher base CPU/PG so it balances out in the long run with them being able to fit the same as an assault, plus the equipment they want although it won't be proto equipment and just barely scratch at advanced.
Zeylon Rho wrote:The Amarr being both the slowest, but only being beefier without modules involved is problematic. However, there's lingering issues of other sorts there, like the Amarr logistics being the only logi with the same H/L slot numbers as the assault, and have less PG that the assault as well.
The amarr suit should be the slowest suit, not as slow as the heavy suit, but slow enough that it should have the highest EHP of the Assault/Logistic suits, and the Logistic model needs to have its CPU/PG buffed.
Zeylon Rho wrote:However, comparing Gallente and Caldari on raw EHP while going all complex shield extenders, but using basic armor plates is somewhat disingenuous. The theoretical point with armor is that you sacrifice speed for HP, and a 1:1 comparison with all complex armor and complex shields would roll out a bit differently.
The reason I compare using the same modules is to highlight the difference in EHP both suits get with the same sacrifice, that being the -6% speed penalty of the basic modules, I can upgrade the modules to complex but it would still be the same sacrifice on both suits and the Caldari suit will still come out ontop with higher EHP. If I were to do a 1:1 comparison, I would obviously get armor coming out on top but with a -40/50% speed sacrifice a build focusing on just armor would be useless in the battlefield.
Zeylon Rho wrote:Of course, we're still supposed to see more "types" of armor modules too (ones with built-in reps, and ones with no move penalty), which might further change the landscape there. It's possible they were balanced for modules we haven't seen yet.
And there are also supposed to be other types of shield modules as well. |
loukoumaki koutsounaki
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 17:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Caldari Logi CK.0 suit has only 90 armor, so isn't it necessary to invest into this, or if you go all shield or like 80-20% shield ratio would it be ok?
Also, I've read somewhere about a Logi VK.0 suit... Which obviously isn't on the market, but it does excist in dust right? Which race is it? I've read it is the fastest and only dropsuit better for assaults than assault suits..
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
130
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 17:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
loukoumaki koutsounaki wrote:The Caldari Logi CK.0 suit has only 90 armor, so isn't it necessary to invest into this, or if you go all shield or like 80-20% shield ratio would it be ok?
Also, I've read somewhere about a Logi VK.0 suit... Which obviously isn't on the market, but it does excist in dust right? Which race is it? I've read it is the fastest and only dropsuit better for assaults than assault suits..
I think the logi vk.0 was the name of the logistics suit before we had racial suits, I honestly cannot remember. |
loukoumaki koutsounaki
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 17:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:loukoumaki koutsounaki wrote:The Caldari Logi CK.0 suit has only 90 armor, so isn't it necessary to invest into this, or if you go all shield or like 80-20% shield ratio would it be ok?
Also, I've read somewhere about a Logi VK.0 suit... Which obviously isn't on the market, but it does excist in dust right? Which race is it? I've read it is the fastest and only dropsuit better for assaults than assault suits..
I think the logi vk.0 was the name of the logistics suit before we had racial suits, I honestly cannot remember.
So actually it doesn't matter anymore because something changed? And also; are there other, better, logi suits than the ones on the market? --> If so, can I find somewhere the races and stats of them |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
130
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 17:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
loukoumaki koutsounaki wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:loukoumaki koutsounaki wrote:The Caldari Logi CK.0 suit has only 90 armor, so isn't it necessary to invest into this, or if you go all shield or like 80-20% shield ratio would it be ok?
Also, I've read somewhere about a Logi VK.0 suit... Which obviously isn't on the market, but it does excist in dust right? Which race is it? I've read it is the fastest and only dropsuit better for assaults than assault suits..
I think the logi vk.0 was the name of the logistics suit before we had racial suits, I honestly cannot remember. So actually it doesn't matter anymore because something changed? And also; are there other, better, logi suits than the ones on the market? --> If so, can I find somewhere the races and stats of them
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667055 use the fitting tool in that post, it has all of the suits including Aurum suits, and you can plan out whatever build you like, with whatever race you like. |
Pseudonym0
Free Guard of Arrakis
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 17:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah, the Logi Vk.0 was a pre-patch proto suit, you're probably actually thinking of the VK.1, which balanced much more HP into shields than armour and was thus as fast as a standard assault suit, think it had one less equipment slot too but that still left it at 3. Probably comparable to the current proto Minmatar Logi, not in-game right now so can't check. I don't think they exist anymore. |
Drex Vizla
Lazarus Squadron
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 18:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
You understand different races, specialize in different things right?
Example: Caldari Are sheild techs and Amarr are lazer techs
Thats why the suits are split up in skill tree, "balancing" them would take away that critical choice in which Factional suit you should buy into.... |
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
130
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 18:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Drex Vizla wrote:You understand different races, specialize in different things right?
Example: Caldari Are sheild techs and Amarr are lazer techs
Thats why the suits are split up in skill tree, "balancing" them would take away that critical choice in which Factional suit you should buy into....
I am highlighting the strength of the suit, the racial specialization comes in the form of the racial bonus. And I am still keeping shield races shield races. What i am suggesting is to even out the field for all the races and highlight what the suit specializes for example amarr is ranking and minmatar is speed, what reason is there for a Caldari to have higher HP than a amarr? |
loukoumaki koutsounaki
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 18:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667055 use the fitting tool in that post, it has all of the suits including Aurum suits, and you can plan out whatever build you like, with whatever race you like.
Yeah I tried this thing but it doesn't seem to work properly, atleast not on my pc.. Excel gets stuck often and when i select my dropsuit it doesnt change anything in the stats under it, very weird.. Maybe I'm just to n00b to understand this thing lol..
I filled in my char name, then went to the simple sheet, then selected my suit (but whichever suit i select nothing changes), I could fill in grenades, guns etc, but again a problem when I wanted to fill in my damage booster, I had only 1 slot available instead of 2..sigh
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Drex Vizla
Lazarus Squadron
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 19:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Drex Vizla wrote:You understand different races, specialize in different things right?
Example: Caldari Are sheild techs and Amarr are lazer techs
Thats why the suits are split up in skill tree, "balancing" them would take away that critical choice in which Factional suit you should buy into.... I am highlighting the strength of the suit, the racial specialization comes in the form of the racial bonus. And I am still trying to keep the suit to focus on what type of armor the race prefers, shields for Caldari and Minmatar, and armor for Amarr and Gallente. What i am suggesting is to even out the field for all the races and highlight what the suit specializes for example amarr is tanking and minmatar is speed; what logical reason is there for a Caldari to have higher HP than a Amarr? Because they are focused on laser/ beam weapon buffs, heavy suits are suppose to tank however |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
131
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 19:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Drex Vizla wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Drex Vizla wrote:You understand different races, specialize in different things right?
Example: Caldari Are sheild techs and Amarr are lazer techs
Thats why the suits are split up in skill tree, "balancing" them would take away that critical choice in which Factional suit you should buy into.... I am highlighting the strength of the suit, the racial specialization comes in the form of the racial bonus. And I am still trying to keep the suit to focus on what type of armor the race prefers, shields for Caldari and Minmatar, and armor for Amarr and Gallente. What i am suggesting is to even out the field for all the races and highlight what the suit specializes for example amarr is tanking and minmatar is speed; what logical reason is there for a Caldari to have higher HP than a Amarr? Because they are focused on laser/ beam weapon buffs, heavy suits are suppose to tank however
Actually the Caldari get a bonus to hybrid weapons, heavy suits are tanks but an Amarr assault suit should have high enough EHP to make it stand out as Amarr in the battlefield since of course the Amarr favor high HP while sacrificing speed. The Gallente and Caldari are meant to be balanced when compared, and the Minmatar favors speed over defense, thus being the opposite of the Amarr. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
755
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 20:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think that a lot of these problems exist because of the tanking imbalance. However, some slot layouts are better than others - The Caldari Logistics comes to mind as a prime example. Similarly, some have particularly bad slot layouts - for example, the Amarr Logistics. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
132
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 20:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I think that a lot of these problems exist because of the tanking imbalance. However, some slot layouts are better than others - The Caldari Logistics comes to mind as a prime example. Similarly, some have particularly bad slot layouts - for example, the Amarr Logistics.
The amarr logistics has a bad layout because other suits can outstrip the Amarrian advantage in base suit HP, the reason I buffed their HP in my suggestion is to mitigate this. If they had that 80+ HP its like giving them a free Complex shield extender. So the Amarrian logistics, the way I am suggesting, would be closer to an Assault class having a side arm, decent HP, and 3 equipment slots; their trade off would be a considerable speed loss compared to an Assault and slower recharge rates. |
Mehrunes-Dagon
WarRavens
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 21:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
You make some really good points, +1 |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 02:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Remnant wrote:We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward: - New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch: - Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty) - Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! ) - We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix. - Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
143
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 03:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bump. |
Shrapnels
Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
79
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 04:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
explain your Balance thoery/ideas on why Amarr AK.0 gets only 6 total slots? |
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
151
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 05:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Shrapnels wrote:explain your Balance thoery/ideas on why Amarr AK.0 gets only 6 total slots?
My balance theory does not take into account the addition of Ferroscale and Reactive plates, therefore it is null. And the reason I suggested the Amarr AK.0 get 6 total slots is because with the current armor/shield system and my suggest buff it would put them on top EHP wise when all the other nerfs/buffs I suggested are taken into account. |
Draco Cerberus
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
99
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 14:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
loukoumaki koutsounaki wrote:The Caldari Logi CK.0 suit has only 90 armor, so isn't it necessary to invest into this, or if you go all shield or like 80-20% shield ratio would it be ok?
Also, I've read somewhere about a Logi VK.0 suit... Which obviously isn't on the market, but it does excist in dust right? Which race is it? I've read it is the fastest and only dropsuit better for assaults than assault suits..
Yes you invest in armor upgrades to increase your armor from 90 to over 100+ hp.
The Logi VK.0 suit is from the Chromosome build and no longer available. Don't expect to find it anywhere, it is a pre-racial suit. |
Draco Cerberus
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
99
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 14:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Shrapnels wrote:explain your Balance thoery/ideas on why Amarr AK.0 gets only 6 total slots? My balance theory does not take into account the addition of Ferroscale and Reactive plates, therefore it is null. And the reason I suggested the Amarr AK.0 get 6 total slots is because with the current armor/shield system and my suggest buff it would put them on top EHP wise when all the other nerfs/buffs I suggested are taken into account.
I suggest we give the nerf/buff hammers some time to cool down and skill into the racial variants and appreciate their diversity. Nothing is equal race to race in Eve and it would be sad if you could take a Galente Logi, sit him next to an Amarr Logi and say they are equal because they are obviously not supposed to be.
The Galente being obviously more geared towards a supporting role (the extra pg/cpu and equipment slots) while the Amarr are more geared towards an assault role and from a race that overall is a domineering race that subjugates it people and forces slavery on its people rather than supporting freedom and free will (the extra gun slot). This balances the suits quite nicely and I find that overall the general balance is quite nicely done.
EDIT: I don't feel that my comment directly addresses your comment but rather addresses them all on a whole as an example that there is balance if you look at them for long enough to find that not all suits are equal. They are not supposed to be equal. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1091
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 16:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
@BL4CKST4R Interesting thread with some good balance/theory crafting going on. Before I comment on the OP (specifically post 2 of it) I would very much like to see you integrate a comment on things such as potential dps and on board suit scan/damp comparisons as, in my view, a perfect balance between suits on the fronts of Speed and EHP would lead to imbalance within the game if these other factors are omitted. (Also total ISK/SP costs to attain given benchmarks should be included if actual numbers or hard ceilings are to be imposed, this however is not needed for suggesting general ratios or progressions).
Good post and looking forward to your reply/update.
Cheers, Cross |
Velvet Overkill
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
111
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 09:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Very good analysis and suggested fix for armor vs shield dropsuit balancing. The reason why the Amarr logi only has 6 slots is because it has a sidearm slot. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
240
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 12:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:@BL4CKST4R Interesting thread with some good balance/theory crafting going on. Before I comment on the OP (specifically post 2 of it) I would very much like to see you integrate a comment on things such as potential dps and on board suit scan/damp comparisons as, in my view, a perfect balance between suits on the fronts of Speed and EHP would lead to imbalance within the game if these other factors are omitted. (Also total ISK/SP costs to attain given benchmarks should be included if actual numbers or hard ceilings are to be imposed, this however is not needed for suggesting general ratios or progressions).
Good post and looking forward to your reply/update.
Cheers, Cross
When I first made this post I did not take into account how the new plates would further increase or decrease the imbalance within armor vs shields and suits themselves. The reason why I do not account dps and suit scanners and dampeners is because no matter what suit you compare this is the same all across the board. For example a heavy with a Gek AR will do the same damage as a scout with a Gek AR. In my opinion these are numbers that should be tweaked when it comes to role specialization, an assault suit should have a on board damage modifier, while a scout should have on board scanner modifiers, and while I am at it a logistics should have built in nanotech modifiers, and heavies built in damage reduction modifiers.
Also I do not strive for a perfect balance of suits, superficially post two looks like the suits are balanced but they aren't the Caldari suit still repairs much higher than any other suit, the Amarr still moves much slower, and the Minmatar are speed tanks now, also by buffing the speed of the Gallente it might look like they are speed tanks now but this is to encourage using stronger armor modules. The real idea was to balance the suits in terms of a tiered overall EHP in a system where they are equal and unequal, and put them in terms of making them good at what they were meant to do, but not extremely better than another suit. Of course in battle nobody will be equal and exactly the same as I am assuming in my suggestions, but it sets a ground for suits to be stronger and balance the sacrifice -> reward that the Caldari and Minmatar suits DO NOT currently see because of how much better they are at everything, with little to no penalty.
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