DUST Search - vehicle combat in dust 514

Second Cerberus wrote:

1. Missiles are a little OP right now. This applies to missiles on all platforms, including tanks and LAV's. This is not just a dropship problem. Granted I have invested 2 million points to get a decent ship, but I only have 100K invested in missiles and can access the AT-1 which is 420 HP direct and 240 splash. Turret Op bonuses get it close to 450 HP.

2. Where was it said that Swarms were designed for dropships? Seriously, I'm asking because I don't know. I find them very effective against LAV's and tanks. They are great on LAV's because they are pretty easy to hit even at full speed and good against tanks because you can usually shoot from cover. I can tell you that swarms are quite harassing in a dropship. They won't OHK, but if you are not flying near top speed to evade they can hit you. (fact: if a DS is at full horizontal speed it is losing altitude which means you can't circle at full speed indefinitely)

3. The impact physics from swarms and forges on ships is still ridiculous. If LAV's shared these physics they should be flipped and rolled a half dozens times. Whatever else, the physics for impact on a vehicle or ship should be the same and right now they are not.

Hope this adds to the discussion, because I would like to see some changes in future builds that improve the DS role.

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ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.26 20:36:00 - [1] - Quote True story here is how i would change Swarm launchers: 1. Get rid of the BPO Swarm launcher for the AV starter kit. give the new players 50 free SL when they start just like AV nades. if they need more they can buy them at any time. 2. increase the missile speed but limit its turn radius. If they overshoot their target, they're scrubed. 3. Remove the ability to lock on to LAVs with SL's but give them their dumb fire mechanic back. 4. missile inbound warning. A little red icon, a buzzer; anything helps really. If the AV grenade bug taught us anything its that instant combustion SUCKS!
WHz DS9899 Doomheim 136	Posted - 2012.10.26 21:17:00 - [2] - Quote I hate 3, but the rest is fine. IMO, that how all of the kits should be (you get 50 militia for each, so It's limited.
Olav Grey-Mane The Exemplars 58	Posted - 2012.10.26 21:21:00 - [3] - Quote I agree with the missle lock on warning, but the increase in fire rate I don't agree with. You're rarely in a tank by your self. there's just about always someone else in the tank in a gunner seat that can take care of the situation, or the driver should drive away from danger. an increase in fire rate is not needed in my opinion.
Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.10.26 21:28:00 - [4] - Quote Everything but 3 is awesome.
VK deathslaer Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 149	Posted - 2012.10.26 21:28:00 - [5] - Quote I also agree with lock on warning. maybe we'll see spider tanking become somewhat functional in this build.
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.10.26 21:43:00 - [6] - Quote I don't have respect for anyone who gets their meme from cheeseburger/memebase. Sorry.
Governor Odius Doomheim 177	Posted - 2012.10.26 22:04:00 - [7] - Quote Two probably wouldn't work either. Dropships aren't really nimble enough to dodge anything. They don't work like fixed wing aircraft, they can only change direction by slowing down in their rcurrent direction. I'm hoping that removing the starter swarm will be enough. That, along with some changes to turret mechanics and some ability to earn warpoints through support actions, should allow us to finally function as transports. I do not enjoy playing gunship.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 810	Posted - 2012.10.26 22:32:00 - [8] - Quote I still think 95% of all the problems with vehicle balance could be solved by nerfing the insanely OP small missile turrets. They OHK most suits and are cheap in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG. When's the last time you saw ANY non-militia vehicle with anything other than missile turrets? It doesn't happen because they are ridiculously broken and using anything else is just blatantly pointless. Without the insane damage output, it wouldn't matter if dropships could outrun swarms.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.26 23:03:00 - [9] - Quote WHz DS9899 wrote: I hate 3, but the rest is fine. IMO, that how all of the kits should be (you get 50 militia for each, so It's limited. OK, i get that swarm lancher > Lav should be as close to a constant as possible, i have no problem with this. What gets my Goat is when i get pick off fromt across the map with minimal effort. This weapon dosent hold points or areas, it holds down entire maps maps. Olav Grey-Mane wrote: I agree with the missle lock on warning, but the increase in fire rate I don't agree with. You're rarely in a tank by your self. there's just about always someone else in the tank in a gunner seat that can take care of the situation, or the driver should drive away from danger. Fire rate Gëá missile speed Super Cargo wrote: I don't have respect for anyone who gets their meme from cheeseburger/memebase. Sorry. Don't be sorry. however there was a point and you missed it. Governor Odius wrote: Two probably wouldn't work either. Dropships aren't really nimble enough to dodge anything. They don't work like fixed wing aircraft, they can only change direction by slowing down in their rcurrent direction. I'm hoping that removing the starter swarm will be enough. That, along with some changes to turret mechanics and some ability to earn warpoints through support actions, should allow us to finally function as transports. I do not enjoy playing gunship. Ya, I'm vaguely aware of the Drop ships limits. I was thinking this could work with LAVS where a well timed J-turn or power slide could scrub a long range missile lock as it closes in. Baal Roo wrote: I still think 95% of all the problems with vehicle balance could be solved by nerfing the insanely OP small missile turrets. They OHK most suits and are cheap in terms of both ISK and CPU/PG. When's the last time you saw ANY non-militia vehicle with anything other than missile turrets? It doesn't happen because they are ridiculously broken and using anything else is just blatantly pointless. Without the insane damage output, it wouldn't matter if dropships could outrun swarms. Before you lead the crusade against Missile launchers lets not forget that most Free LAV's come with them standard depending on the race of your character. I think this would also fall under my first point.
Lavirac JR DUST University Ivy League 129	Posted - 2012.10.26 23:55:00 - [10] - Quote I can agree with everything but number 1. My solution would have been to boost LAVs, but that could have over powered them. This is a fair compromise. Number 3 is a bit iffy with the damned drop ships though...

Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 169	Posted - 2012.10.27 01:29:00 - [11] - Quote ugg reset wrote: True story here is how i would change Swarm launchers: 1. Get rid of the BPO Swarm launcher for the AV starter kit. give the new players 50 free SL when they start just like AV nades. if they need more they can buy them at any time. 2. increase the missile speed but limit its turn radius. If they overshoot their target, they're scrubed. 3. Remove the ability to lock on to LAVs with SL's but give them their dumb fire mechanic back. 4. missile inbound warning. A little red icon, a buzzer; anything helps really. If the AV grenade bug taught us anything its that instant combustion SUCKS! This is mandatory.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.10.27 02:42:00 - [12] - Quote The dropship is just one of several small missile turret weilders and it is not invulnerable. Yes it can outrun swarms, but only if it can keep up maximum speed. The thing is, it's tricky to manage that constantly for an entire match, let alone match after match. The reason is a combination of small maps and a low ceiling. At full speed the ship has a very large turn radius. Most red zones are tight enough to challenge that radius, and maps have hills as tall as the service ceiling that tighten that further. If a pilot slips up, perhaps by trying to give a gunner a better shot, he'll have to slow down to make his turn and then he's vulnerable. Gunners can also mess up the pilot by shooting the ship. It takes no damage, but does get tossed about enough to redirect it to a hillside or building which then requires a slowing correction, again making it vulnerable. Finally, the ship must trade what little altitude it has for forward velocity. Tipping the ship redirects thrust forward at the expense of verticle so it loses altitude. The further you tip to get moving fast the more you lose, and there is often very little to trade with the low ceiling and tall objects. Just when you regain speed you notice the tall hill or crane directly in your path. Once struck the ship is tossed about like a rag doll, frequently slowing it down further. That's why swarms can and do take down ships. Then there are the fixed installations and forge gunners which further distract the pilot and restrict the flyable area. So yes, a good pilot can evade you for a long while, but he's working pretty hard on most maps and one slip in six matches and he's into negative returns. He is working hard for his low pay, not mindlessly joyriding. Take a stab at it yourself if you don't believe me.
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.10.27 04:23:00 - [13] - Quote ugg reset wrote: True story here is how i would change Swarm launchers: 1. Get rid of the BPO Swarm launcher for the AV starter kit. give the new players 50 free SL when they start just like AV nades. if they need more they can buy them at any time. 2. increase the missile speed but limit its turn radius. If they overshoot their target, they're scrubed. 3. Remove the ability to lock on to LAVs with SL's but give them their dumb fire mechanic back. 4. missile inbound warning. A little red icon, a buzzer; anything helps really. If the AV grenade bug taught us anything its that instant combustion SUCKS! Do want I do. Flux grenades to take out their massive shield. Finish them off with a Forge Gun. The rest is you, unless there are more of you.
Jarre Jardox Cool Story But It Needs More EVE 30	Posted - 2012.10.27 04:38:00 - [14] - Quote Skihids there are 2 main issues though. First is tht dropships aren't living up to their name they are closer to gunships (this is due to lack of incentive to be a dropship, high damage ouput and generally small maps tht are traversed just as easily in an lav). Second is tht there are so many good pilots tht for some of us it seems like every third match u find a pilot dominating the battlefield. I agree with all points except 3. If I'm in an lav I can easily get swarms to run into hills or buildings and if point 2 is implemented this will be even easier. As far as missile turrets getting a nerf I disagree instead blasters and railguns need to be adjusted as viable options for dropships then the skill tree needs to be adjusted so tht small missile turrets is more skill intensive (maybe require turrets skill at 3 or even 4 before u can train small missile turrets) also the pilots skills shouldn't apply a bonus to the guns instead the gunners skills should apply the bonuses this in turn sort of nerfs turrets but opens up turret gunner as a profession.
Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.10.27 18:29:00 - [15] - Quote Is this idea already in the feedback forum?
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.27 18:36:00 - [16] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Is this idea already in the feedback forum? Can't see how it wouldn't matter.
NeoprotoD Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 28	Posted - 2012.10.27 19:00:00 - [17] - Quote I agree with #2 and #4 but disagree with #3. In a previous build people were spamming swarm launchers. It got kind of silly.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.28 06:35:00 - [18] - Quote NeoprotoD wrote: I agree with #2 and #4 but disagree with #3. In a previous build people were spamming swarm launchers. It got kind of silly. Is a rocket not a Weapon? What differens dose it make if there shot from a turret or a shoulder mounted launcher. Even if they are good for engaging one or two people at once they will never replace other light arms. no one complained about forge guns being used for anti personal and they're a OHK weapon. Edit: also swarms have awful splash damage now
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die 134	Posted - 2012.10.28 18:49:00 - [19] - Quote This is silly, the weapon supposedly designed to destroy the dropship, doesn't even hit it. I have watched countless dropships just circle, if the players facing it are able to pull out a swarm launcher they are easy targets for the many other enemy players left on the ground level of the map. Funny also is that I never see any of the top 100 on the leaderboards actually facing a dropship, gunning down most of the players fighting the ship is just to easy. I find it amusing to say the least that you say it is a challenge to fly the stupid thing around in a circle, it is almost similar to tankers saying that they have skill to. My fat suited heavy forge gun suit has over 700hp (between shield and armor plates) yet it was unable to withstand the rapid fire rockets coming out and the splash damage. And my 2.1 second charge up time for the forge made sure that my screen was bouncing so I couldn't even get a good shot. How about if I do hit the vehicle they shake for a few moments where they can't do anything, so maybe the rockets could hit, but even then when I did that they were able to speed away with the trail of 15 swarm rockets chasing them.
Second Cerberus Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 38	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:37:00 - [20] - Quote I have used dropships extensively in the last 3 builds, but spend alot of time in logistics grinding for the SP and ISK to fund the skills and ships. In all 3 builds, there has been zero way to realistically make a living as a dropship pilot moving troops around the field. Even with corps, that hasn't really changed. This is because the LAV provides excellent point to point transportation and droplinks are cheap and effective. My current ship is 511,000 ISK and I have about 2 million SP invested in ship skills. About 2/3 of these skills don't translate into anything useful when I'm ground pounding so it is a risk/reward investment. None of this info is to brag/whine, just putting it out there as everyone encounters dropships on the field but not as many may have tried to skill into it. When I call in a ship, I have no weapons I control (unlike tankers) and require at least one skilled gunner to make any points. Literally. Unless my gunner kills someone, I make zero points. To add constructively to this thread, I would argue three points: 1. Missiles are a little OP right now. This applies to missiles on all platforms, including tanks and LAV's. This is not just a dropship problem. Granted I have invested 2 million points to get a decent ship, but I only have 100K invested in missiles and can access the AT-1 which is 420 HP direct and 240 splash. Turret Op bonuses get it close to 450 HP. 2. Where was it said that Swarms were designed for dropships? Seriously, I'm asking because I don't know. I find them very effective against LAV's and tanks. They are great on LAV's because they are pretty easy to hit even at full speed and good against tanks because you can usually shoot from cover. I can tell you that swarms are quite harassing in a dropship. They won't OHK, but if you are not flying near top speed to evade they can hit you. (fact: if a DS is at full horizontal speed it is losing altitude which means you can't circle at full speed indefinitely) 3. The impact physics from swarms and forges on ships is still ridiculous. If LAV's shared these physics they should be flipped and rolled a half dozens times. Whatever else, the physics for impact on a vehicle or ship should be the same and right now they are not. Hope this adds to the discussion, because I would like to see some changes in future builds that improve the DS role.

Waruiko DUST G I A N T 90	Posted - 2012.10.28 22:56:00 - [21] - Quote I agree with everything but 3 being a good idea. No the dumb fire thing that's fine, but you should still be able to lock LAV. I honestly don't know why they removed it. The last time a call for the removal of the Swarm's dumb fire was relevant was way back when the missiles did something in the area of 60ish damage splash each and people were using them as close range anti personnel weapons. Back then the other argument was to make them Heavy Weapons. If they gave them back their splash and dumb fire I could support swarms as a heavy weapon. It would balance with the forge gun on what type of AV you want to do, Anti Armor or Anti Shield.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.29 23:32:00 - [22] - Quote Second Cerberus wrote: 1. Missiles are a little OP right now. This applies to missiles on all platforms, including tanks and LAV's. This is not just a dropship problem. Granted I have invested 2 million points to get a decent ship, but I only have 100K invested in missiles and can access the AT-1 which is 420 HP direct and 240 splash. Turret Op bonuses get it close to 450 HP. 2. Where was it said that Swarms were designed for dropships? Seriously, I'm asking because I don't know. I find them very effective against LAV's and tanks. They are great on LAV's because they are pretty easy to hit even at full speed and good against tanks because you can usually shoot from cover. I can tell you that swarms are quite harassing in a dropship. They won't OHK, but if you are not flying near top speed to evade they can hit you. (fact: if a DS is at full horizontal speed it is losing altitude which means you can't circle at full speed indefinitely) 3. The impact physics from swarms and forges on ships is still ridiculous. If LAV's shared these physics they should be flipped and rolled a half dozens times. Whatever else, the physics for impact on a vehicle or ship should be the same and right now they are not. Hope this adds to the discussion, because I would like to see some changes in future builds that improve the DS role. Specced into DS; where were you during the tournament? we needed some one like you! I like 3. unlike the other vehicles LAV's can't tank out multipol lock on's or out run them, believe me i've tried Load outs for both. adding the dumb fire and removing the lock on (to LAV's exclusively!) would level the playing field without rendering the rocket useless for AV. 1. ya no question about it. 2. the SL needs a lock on range. the one last build was way to short but it's a shame they just threw a good idea out the window. 3. ATM the only way to un-flip a ride is with another ride. It would be cool if a Heavy Drop suit could flip it Master chief style. LAVs are affected by missiles. we don't flip is because there isn't enough friction between our tires and the ground. When hit we're turned into car sized Hockey pucks.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.10.29 23:36:00 - [23] - Quote ugg reset wrote: True story here is how i would change Swarm launchers: 1. Get rid of the BPO Swarm launcher for the AV starter kit. give the new players 50 free SL when they start just like AV nades. if they need more they can buy them at any time. 2. increase the missile speed but limit its turn radius. If they overshoot their target, they're scrubed. 3. Remove the ability to lock on to LAVs with SL's but give them their dumb fire mechanic back. 4. missile inbound warning. A little red icon, a buzzer; anything helps really. If the AV grenade bug taught us anything its that instant combustion SUCKS! i have an idea. lets just make dropships unkillable. because a single forge gun is too pathetic to stop it and the chances of having 2 on the battlefield are slim to none. so why not make it official, dropships becoming unkillable.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.29 23:41:00 - [24] - Quote Ugh, you again necro. go home you're drunk
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.10.29 23:53:00 - [25] - Quote ugg reset wrote: Ugh, you again necro. go home your drunk someone has to counter crap or else they will take away dropsuits and just make vehicles only, final destination.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.30 00:09:00 - [26] - Quote Necrodermis wrote: ugg reset wrote: Ugh, you again necro. go home your drunk someone has to counter crap or else they will take away dropsuits and just make vehicles only, final destination. If it makes you feel better I made another thread on dealing with drop ships. go moan over there.


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