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Indy Strizer
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
199
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Posted - 2014.12.02 12:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off, I just want to say that I understand the HMG is intended to be very good at CQC. I regularly use it to slay hordes of medium suits rushing at me- but, it seems like an "I win" button and I think it may have the same issue that rail rifles and dropships did before, that is, although it does work like it's supposed to and it does what it's intended to do... perhaps it doesn't take enough skill and discretion on the part of the player to be balanced.
This lack of discretion and skill being needed is apparent in many situations- heavies in murder taxis, blobs of heavies, heavies being the absolute most powerful force when pushing objectives.
And while I do think the HMG should be absolutely devastating to players within short range, I also object to how it (along with cloaked scouts) have pushed any frame with a shotgun that is not a scout into irrelevance within CQC environments. In my own eyes, heavies are assaults with tons of hit points and the HMG is a giant sub-machine gun. Why use assaults over that?
Let me clarify my recent thoughts on HMG's in CQC:
The HMG should be devastating at close range, but it should be devastating in a different way within CQC. I think light weapons as they are now are nimble enough, but the HMG should be less nimble by comparison.
I think part of why sentinels may be so hard to balance is because they are capable of equipping light weapons in addition to heavy weapons. Sentinels do not seem balanced around a particular playstyle that was deliberately designed like minmatar scouts, assaults, logistics- they simply march and mow down whatever they can manage to look at.
In other words- heavies are balanced to prevent them from becoming heavy assaults with light weapons, but not balanced to actually accomplish something within their role or play in a certain way that involves more than just having massive DPS and HP at the expense of speed and range- waiting to be called upon to dominate CQC environments.
Another issue I want to mention is that I think I once remembered reading a dev blog that described heavies being able to go toe to toe with vehicles or being the best choice for general AV duty. I have a few thoughts on this too...
So with all these problems in mind? What would I do? How would I approach the situation? What would I expect from a heavy? How would I want to play as one in comparison to other suits? I will be the first to admit that not all of these are good ideas, I've only thought them out pretty vaguely, but I have a rough outline right here for your reading pleasure and consideration...
DESIGN GOALS
- Reduce the HMG's dominance within CQC.
- Nerf the "heavy blob warfare" tactic.
- Nerf the "murder taxi" tactic- the heavy with an HMG in an LAV.
- Allow the HMG and Sentinel to be versatile in environments beyond CQC.
- Further differentiate the HMG/Sentinel play style from other roles.
- Justify and balance the HMG's increase in damage to vehicles.
PROPOSALS
Add spool/rev time- the barrels have to spin for a bit before rounds start firing.
This will reduce reaction time in CQC environments and in LAV's.
Allow players to "pre-charge" their HMG by holding L1 to make the barrels spin and crouch to significantly increase their accuracy. Reduce the turn speed penalty on ADS and crouching for heavies, but don't remove it.
The sentinel should really shine in point defense. Incentivizing these things still allow the HMG to be be effective at suppressing enemies in CQC, but in a less nimble and mobile manner to other weapons. The power of the HMG will require a bit more discretion on the part of the player- positioning and awareness. The sound of the barrel spinning will become a psychological deterrent.
Add more sway to the HMG hipfire reticule as a heavy walks.
This will be a small penalty to players "running and gunning".
Remove light weapon compatibility from the heavy weapon slots.
This will allow CCP to no longer have to balance sentinels around the possiblity of them becoming assaults with too much hit points.
Increase the range of the HMG and damage against vehicles.
This will allow the HMG to be a bit more flexibility beyond CQC. It will become a general suppression weapon- even against vehicles.
Possibly increase the HP on the sentinel.
Sentinels will no longer be able to strafe and run and gun as much. They may need the HP to compensate for their new inability to evade damage. Sentinels will be able to survive a few more hits from vehicles- missiles and such. Yes, I know sound insane.
HOW WOULD A PLAYING AS A HEAVY GO DOWN?
I imagine that after a change involving some of these ideas, heavy would no longer completely supplant the assault in CQC. They would compliment each other.
Nimbler assault suits would be better suited for their offensive breaching niche and playing whack-a-mole... but, if heavy aims down sights, then they better not pop their heads around that corner, whatever they're looking at should be dead. If they crouch and aim down sights, they become simply become a much more accurate human turret. Assaults would be better at attacking and HMG's would be better for covering and locking things down.
A heavy on a rooftop would not be able to shoot down at players without crouching and becoming an open and stationary target himself.
In squad play, the heavy with an HMG could follow the squad and suppress tanks and infantry.
Anyways, that's all for now. Maybe, I'll add more later, that's all I can think of for now. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
212
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd like to see a spool up time, with a higher heat build up and dramatically slower heat dispersion rate on the HMG, this would make the HMG heavy require some fire support if they get into a prolonged firefight.
Of course the problem is that fire support could come from another heavy, but the idea is to make the HMG a sort of high output with high downtime weapon so you would want an assault or commando around to defend the group while the HMG cools down, etc
JUST SPITBALLIN |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5592
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ehhhh
this feels off to me.
Very off even though it is similar to my own proposal to simply evict fatties from CQC
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
882
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Is HMG Heavy who speaks sense. Is not Fox Gaden.
Strange. +1 |
Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
1289
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
i agree on spool time.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Indy Strizer
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
202
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Posted - 2014.12.02 20:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:I'd like to see a spool up time, with a higher heat build up and dramatically slower heat dispersion rate on the HMG, this would make the HMG heavy require some fire support if they get into a prolonged firefight.
Of course the problem is that fire support could come from another heavy, but the idea is to make the HMG a sort of high output with high downtime weapon so you would want an assault or commando around to defend the group while the HMG cools down, etc
JUST SPITBALLIN Sounds cool, but I think giving it the high downtown only penalizes the heavy after it's mowed down a bunch of people. I think it should involve some prep work too: crouching and aiming down sights- to leave it open to snipers and flanky scouts and mass drivers and such.
I also think it depends on the HMG variant which I will probably write on in a bit more tonight. These ideas for the HMG don't work with all heavies, but I'll be writing down more ideas and opinions- my caldari heavy needs cover to regenerate shields so it can't just sit in the open and expect to soak damage.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ehhhh
this feels off to me.
Very off even though it is similar to my own proposal to simply evict fatties from CQC
Yep, I liked your ideas and some of them just happened to align with mine, I don't think a heavy with an HMG should be kicked out of CQC completely. It is the only heavy weapon they have. I know it sounds radical and crazy- the developers are probably cringing as they read this with it's lack of numbers and such, but I'd like to see them become an regular part of the squad- the logi resupplies, the assault pushes, the scout provides e-war, and the heavy provides a big gun to lock down corridors and flanking routes and to deter vehicles- all while being a damage sponge. I want it to still work in CQC, but I don't want it to be the go to suit and weapon combo that automatically dominates that situation anymore.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Is HMG Heavy. Is speaking sense. Is not Fox Gaden.
Strange. +1 Got a proto caldari sentinel and commando and HMG, but even then, I hardly use it, I don't consider myself a heavy- I can't. It's not like a logistics or scout, where I feel it'd work as a full time role, and I'd be providing a full-time benefit to other players.
Personally, it's just a combo that I use within close range fights and to counter heavy spam.
Anyways, I'm surprised I didn't get a group of heavies knocking on my door and asking if I'd like to go for a ride only to be thrown off a cliff this morning. I'll write a bit more on these thoughts. |
CLONE117
True Pros Forever
877
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Posted - 2014.12.02 23:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
putting it into a sort of ground infantry suppression system for the hmg might be better over all.
but that means increasing firing time and ammo as well as maybe reducing the rof and improving accuracy for the weapon.
doesnt become as deadly in cqc after that but it would certainly make it better in a few of those other areas. and some what decrease cqc effectiveness. and makes it better for the long term firefights.
right now. it feels like it is designed to just kill as many ppl as fast as possible.
i want to see people running for cover. from this weapon. i want this gun to keep them there so i can have faster players such as assaults flank them. and if they catch and try to exit cover hopefully ill be able to kill them as they pop out to run.
ADD PVE CCP!!!
WE HAVE BEEN SCREAMING THIS FOR YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
445
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Posted - 2014.12.03 01:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Indy Strizer wrote:Lots of interesting stuff
You are taking a middle of the road approach to heavy role between the general extremes on the forums
I would like to point out that the maps are all CQC around points. Your proposal would weaken heavies on closed Dom and Skirm maps (90% of them) and strengthen heavies on open Ambush maps (90%) of them.
Which is reasonable. However, I want to point out a few things.
Heavies do not run and gun. Even speed heavies who can sprint fast can't sidestep fast. So they take all the damage.
CQC topography on maps with points accounts for more than 95% of objectives. That is one of the major reasons why heavies are spammed so much. This is verifiable by the fact that heavies do not perform as well as the other classes kill wise in Ambush which is generally quite open. A map design change would completely change how many heavies you see.
That being said a short spool up time, while I am against it in principle, could exist and still keep heavies viable. Heavies enjoy a small accuracy bonus when crouching and ADSing currently and their turn speed already drops in accordance to this. Basically what you are asking for already exists as far as I understand what you are typing. I'd like some further clarification there to really wrap my head around it.
Regardless, the idea as a whole is as interesting as is the many ideas I have seen popping up by other forum goers. I also do see how it would need to be implemented as a whole to have a chance at getting the desired effect.
CLONE117 wrote: i want to see people running for cover. from this weapon. i want this gun to keep them there so i can have faster players such as assaults flank them. and if they catch and try to exit cover hopefully ill be able to kill them as they pop out to run.
That sounds pretty cool, but heavies would like to get kills too <.< Suppression doesn't exactly reward in this game. |
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