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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2089
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Posted - 2014.02.26 17:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think...also...
There are a few things in combing through the SDE that are a little interesting...
1) Not all speed penalties are created equal. The regular armor plates get movement speed penalty, but also 'speed scale' penalties to jump, turning, and strafing. However reactive plates only have the base movement speed penalty. Is this intented?
2) My concern with regular plates also is that, depending on how the 'movement speed scale' is applied, it could be doubly affecting movementTun.strafespeed. My assumption is that your running strafe speed is a function (90%) of your movement speed, if you get a 5% penalty to movement speed and 5% penalty to your running strafe speed scale, that actually means that your strafe speed will end up being closer to 80% of your initial default suit base speed. So that would mean that if you are stacking 3 complex plates, you'd actually get around a 33% difference between initial ground speed and modified strafe speed. IOW strafe speed has a double penalty. The same could apply to jumping/sprint jumping if it is also a function of movement speed.
Tl;Dr - If this is the case, I don't think people who complain about armor being so strong understand how much better shield users are in strafing fights.
As an amarr armor tanker I'm always surprised at how fast some strafers I come upon are (KBM crutch users aside). |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2431
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Posted - 2014.02.26 17:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is good to know.
As a fellow tanker(Gallente) I appreciate you being this to everyone's attention.
I still think movement penalty should be raised to 3/4/5 or 3/4/6 but that's just me.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
6824
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think it should be 5/5/5.
Complex plates are never used lawl
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2091
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I think it should be 5/5/5.
Complex plates are never used lawl
You are saying increase the speed penalty to all of them so that it incentivizes using the heavier plates? Would you then make the case that all shields need the same penalty then too? |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
6827
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I think it should be 5/5/5.
Complex plates are never used lawl You are saying increase the speed penalty to all of them so that it incentivizes using the heavier plates? Would you then make the case that all shields need the same penalty then too? Yes
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Marc Rime
287
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I think it should be 5/5/5.
Complex plates are never used lawl You are saying increase the speed penalty to all of them so that it incentivizes using the heavier plates? Would you then make the case that all shields need the same penalty then too? I don't see why shields should affect speed, but have always found it weird that shield extenders didn't increase your sig radius (they do in eve)... however, since I plan on getting a cal scout I wouldn't want that either ;).
Maybe they should just remove the penalties on both shield and armor, might make it easier to keep the two balanced. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2432
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I think it should be 5/5/5.
Complex plates are never used lawl You are saying increase the speed penalty to all of them so that it incentivizes using the heavier plates? Would you then make the case that all shields need the same penalty then too? I don't see why shields should affect speed, but have always found it weird that shield extenders didn't increase your sig radius (they do in eve)... however, since I plan on getting a cal scout I wouldn't want that either ;). Maybe they should just remove the penalties on both shield and armor, might make it easier to keep the two balanced. Meh, removing the penalty for extenders would be nothing compared to removing the penalty for plates. Extenders didn't even have a drawback pre 1.7
Plates need a slightly higher speed penalty so they don't become the dmg mods of the low slot.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
3281
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
This kind of screw up has CCP written all over it.
No.
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Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1766
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:You are saying increase the speed penalty to all of them so that it incentivizes using the heavier plates? Would you then make the case that all shields need the same penalty then too?
Beren, seeing as how those stats correspond to the old armor speed penalty, do you think this is simply oversight?
Even if it is, I'd make the argument to leave things the way they are. Armor plates are at a competitive advantage these days compared to shield extenders, and I'd hate to do anything that results in a buff... even if it's correcting an oversight.
(As usual, +1 for SCIENCE Beren. Thanks for doing the data digging.)
I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - draconian forum overlord CCP Logibro]
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
1138
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I think...also...
There are a few things in combing through the SDE that are a little interesting...
1) Not all speed penalties are created equal. The regular armor plates get movement speed penalty, but also 'speed scale' penalties to jump, turning, and strafing. However reactive plates only have the base movement speed penalty. Is this intented?
2) My concern with regular plates also is that, depending on how the 'movement speed scale' is applied, it could be doubly affecting movementTun.strafespeed. My assumption is that your running strafe speed is a function (90%) of your movement speed, if you get a 5% penalty to movement speed and 5% penalty to your running strafe speed scale, that actually means that your strafe speed will end up being closer to 80% of your initial default suit base speed. So that would mean that if you are stacking 3 complex plates, you'd actually get around a 33% difference between initial ground speed and modified strafe speed. IOW strafe speed has a double penalty. The same could apply to jumping/sprint jumping if it is also a function of movement speed.
Tl;Dr - If this is the case, I don't think people who complain about armor being so strong understand how much better shield users are in strafing fights.
As an amarr armor tanker I'm always surprised at how fast some strafers I come upon are (KBM crutch users aside).
Hmm, interesting. I would believe it- I've certainly felt that I noticed strafe speed reduction more than run speed reduction when stacking plates. TBH I would accept this being by design, though it should be propagated to all types of plates. |
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10077
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Posted - 2014.02.26 18:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Really? That's very interesting. Are you sure?
This warrants further investigation and testing.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1766
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Really? That's very interesting. Are you sure?
This warrants further investigation and testing.
You'll have to dig really, really deep to find the last time Beren was wrong. Mostly because his thing is data digging.
But testing is always a good thing.
MOAR SCIENCE
I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - draconian forum overlord CCP Logibro]
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2095
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Really? That's very interesting. Are you sure?
This warrants further investigation and testing. You'll have to dig really, really deep to find the last time Beren was wrong. Mostly because his thing is data digging. But testing is always a good thing. MOAR SCIENCE
Yeah I haven't tested this in the field. If someone wanted to that'd be cool. Sit at a supply depot, stare at it, turn 90 degrees, and strafe away from it at a known distance. Figure out your ground speed and compare it to what you think it should be. |
Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2096
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'll check this out tonight if I get time. I also want to figure out sprint strafing, because according to the db it's a thing. |
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
864
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
GTFO with this whole "KB/M crutch" s**t. KB/M is in a horrible state right now. There is 0 benefit over DS3 other than turning speed. Its obvious you guys have never used a KB/M in this game because it is terrible in many many ways.
Sluggish aiming, Framerate directly affects how well you can aim, module wheel is difficult to use, selecting spawn location is sometimes 100% impossible etc...
Join our public channel -
ACME SPECIAL FORCES PUB
For the STATE!
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Marc Rime
287
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Marc Rime wrote:(...) Maybe they should just remove the penalties on both shield and armor, might make it easier to keep the two balanced. Meh, removing the penalty for extenders would be nothing compared to removing the penalty for plates. Extenders didn't even have a drawback pre 1.7 Plates need a slightly higher speed penalty so they don't become the dmg mods of the low slot. Didn't mean they should remove the penalties without adjusting the HP values, but with the penalties gone there's less variables when balancing. |
Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2097
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:GTFO with this whole "KB/M crutch" s**t. KB/M is in a horrible state right now. There is 0 benefit over DS3 other than turning speed. Its obvious you guys have never used a KB/M in this game because it is terrible in many many ways.
Sluggish aiming, Framerate directly affects how well you can aim, module wheel is difficult to use, selecting spawn location is sometimes 100% impossible etc...
I don't really care for this thread to go off on this topic. I welcome your comments on whether you think strafe speed should be doubly penalized by armor plates. |
Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2097
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Marc Rime wrote:(...) Maybe they should just remove the penalties on both shield and armor, might make it easier to keep the two balanced. Meh, removing the penalty for extenders would be nothing compared to removing the penalty for plates. Extenders didn't even have a drawback pre 1.7 Plates need a slightly higher speed penalty so they don't become the dmg mods of the low slot. Didn't mean they should remove the penalties without adjusting the HP values, but with the penalties gone there's less variables when balancing.
I don't know if you guys caught my other point in the OP but plates don't just have a % movement penalty it's actually a...
% penalty to base speed - which negatively impacts sprints as well additional % penalty to base strafe speed - which means a lot of armor suits can't outstrafe AA % penalty to 'jump speed' - which means a lot of suits with armor mods can't jump over railings % penalty to turning speed - which means if you catch a non KBM armor dropsuit, they will turn around 5%-25% slower. |
Rusty Shallows
1041
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:snip
Complex plates are never used lawl Anyone running a heavy and not using a complex plate (when fittings permits) is doing it wrong. My standard sentinel HMG fit uses one and the bricked HMG with Logi piggy-back has two. I use an enhanced on the FG fit but that is because of the complex armor repair mod.
The only excuse are the fast Heavies with their kin-cats. Weirdos one and all.
With regards to the main topic. If data helps my single complex plate can jump up some curbs and not on others (generally in Line Harvest). My double complex plate can't jump any curbs.
Here, have some candy and a Like. :-)
Forums > Game
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance
6866
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Whelp, shield tankers can now STFU
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Vitharr Foebane
Living Like Larry Schwag
635
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:snip
Complex plates are never used lawl Anyone running a heavy and not using a complex plate (when fittings permits) is doing it wrong. My standard sentinel HMG fit uses one and the bricked HMG with Logi piggy-back has two. I use an enhanced on the FG fit but that is because of the complex armor repair mod. The only excuse are the fast Heavies with their kin-cats. Weirdos one and all. With regards to the main topic. If data helps my single complex plate can jump up some curbs and not on others (generally in Line Harvest). My double complex plate can't jump any curbs. oi solo heavies benefit greatly from comp reps in the lows
Thanks CCP for making the HMG Heavy viable again :3
That's no excuse to slack off on releasing a heavy laser though =.=
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
4419
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:Cat Merc wrote:snip
Complex plates are never used lawl Anyone running a heavy and not using a complex plate (when fittings permits) is doing it wrong. My standard sentinel HMG fit uses one and the bricked HMG with Logi piggy-back has two. I use an enhanced on the FG fit but that is because of the complex armor repair mod. The only excuse are the fast Heavies with their kin-cats. Weirdos one and all. With regards to the main topic. If data helps my single complex plate can jump up some curbs and not on others (generally in Line Harvest). My double complex plate can't jump any curbs. Bro, if you're using anything besides ferroscale, biotics and reactives on a heavy, you're doing it wrong.
My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2102
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
I did one test tonight, and I actually wasn't convinced one way or another. It actually may not have doubled the strafe penalty. |
Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2102
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Posted - 2014.02.27 05:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Whelp, shield tankers can now STFU
I know, right? If people don't even use anything beyond ADV plates that isn't really all that much more HP especially when it regens crap slow compared to shield. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
665
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Posted - 2014.02.27 05:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Whelp, shield tankers can now STFU I know, right? If people don't even use anything beyond ADV plates that isn't really all that much more HP especially when it regens crap slow compared to shield.
I really have to do an infographic showing how absurdly efficient basic plates are, and why they're a no-brainer for shield tankers to fit.
Selling dust codes!
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance
6871
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 13:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Whelp, shield tankers can now STFU I know, right? If people don't even use anything beyond ADV plates that isn't really all that much more HP especially when it regens crap slow compared to shield. I really have to do an infographic showing how absurdly efficient basic plates are, and why they're a no-brainer for shield tankers to fit. Yes, basic plates are rather absurd.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2112
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Posted - 2014.02.28 12:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
I am now 95% sure that plates are doubly penalized.
I did another couple of tests last night, and with 2 complex plates my base strafe speed seemed to only be about 76% of my base ground speed on my amarr logistics suit.
Dropsuit (unfitted) ground speed: 4.5 m/s Fitted ground speed: 4.11 m/s Fitted strafe speed: ~3.4 m/s |
Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2116
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
For anyone reading during lunch, I updated this today. Looks like it does double-stack the penalty. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
628
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Great work mate +1 |
REMNANCY 1
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
57
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
I seriously can't believe how "dancing" is still even possible.What will it take to kill this anti-skill,anti-tactical exploit? |
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2120
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Posted - 2014.03.04 00:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Still curious if this is a bug |
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
1049
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Posted - 2014.03.04 00:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
my amarr logi suit with 2x std plates strafes as fast as my min scout with 2x kin catsGǪ.
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
790
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Posted - 2014.03.04 00:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
I never would have thought of this, great post OP. I would love to see a blue tag to confirm or deny Beren's hypothesis and testing.
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2123
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Posted - 2014.03.04 01:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:my amarr logi suit with 2x std plates strafes as fast as my min scout with 2x kin catsGǪ. Kincats don't modify strafe speed. |
Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2242
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Posted - 2014.03.19 13:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
This is still not answered. |
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p
205
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Posted - 2014.03.19 13:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I think it should be 5/5/5.
Complex plates are never used lawl id be down for that. Also, unless we add speed penalties like this, scouts will brick tank in 1.8. Id suggest adding a 8/8/8 penalty, but medium frames drop it down to 4/4/4 and heavies get a 3/3/3 as well. I really don't want brick tanked scouts
Kills-Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance
478
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Posted - 2014.03.19 13:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Source? And lol at people wanting armor to be heavier. Move kin cats to highslots and make them effect movement speed and we'll talk.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2243
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Posted - 2014.03.19 13:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Source? And lol at people wanting armor to be heavier. Move kin cats to highslots and make them effect movement speed and we'll talk.
Did you not read the OP dude. I said I did empirical testing in the game AND was consulting the SDE. You do your own tests if you want. SDE says .95x for ground.runspeed.strafescale or something and then .95x ground speed. And then since running strafe speed is a function of ground speed (.9) then it means it applies 2x. |
Cenex Langly
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
661
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Posted - 2014.03.19 13:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:GTFO with this whole "KB/M crutch" s**t. KB/M is in a horrible state right now. There is 0 benefit over DS3 other than turning speed. Its obvious you guys have never used a KB/M in this game because it is terrible in many many ways.
Sluggish aiming, Framerate directly affects how well you can aim, module wheel is difficult to use, selecting spawn location is sometimes 100% impossible etc...
I completely agree with every point. I had to switch to the controller just to get the aim assist so I could remain competitive. KBM have almost no advantage in this game. The only advantage that I can agree are faster turning speed and sniping is easy mode.
Newb
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
3313
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Posted - 2014.03.19 14:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
People don't use complex plates? I have both regular and ferroscale complex plates in my fits. The complex plate is for those fits that only have room for one plate and I don't care about speed. The complex ferroscale is where I want some more armor buffer and don't want any speed hit.
Adapt or Die // Republic Lance Commander // @ReesNoturana
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2245
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Posted - 2014.03.19 14:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:People don't use complex plates? I have both regular and ferroscale complex plates in my fits. The complex plate is for those fits that only have room for one plate and I don't care about speed. The complex ferroscale is where I want some more armor buffer and don't want any speed hit.
Speed seems to be a really touchy subject. There is a point where it matters when it helps you strafe more bullets, then there is a point where it doesn't really effect it. There is also a point where it helps your objective to objective sprint rate, then there is a point where that speed doesn't matter so much. The more defensive you are planning on being with your suit, especially in a squad that more 'point defense' oriented, the more a little bit of speed penalty doesn't really matter. |
Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
303
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Posted - 2014.03.19 14:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Whelp, shield tankers can now STFU I know, right? If people don't even use anything beyond ADV plates that isn't really all that much more HP especially when it regens crap slow compared to shield. I really have to do an infographic showing how absurdly efficient basic plates are, and why they're a no-brainer for shield tankers to fit. edit http://i.imgur.com/SDHzvbp.png
You must have entered your information wrong for complex plates because your chart says complex plates get around 85 HP per PG, which would put them up in the range of over 1020 HP per complex plate and 425 for the amount of CPU to HP ration.
Personally I don't think armor really needs to be brought down, I think STD and ADV shields need to be brought up. Proto seems pretty good right now but STD and ADV just don't seem to offer enough HP to be worth seriously fitting. I say make shield extenders going something more like 34/50/66 because that is similar to how plates scale (a set numerical increase instead of multiplication)
Also reactive and ferroscale plates need buffed a bit too, they offer to little HP for very high fitting costs compared to other plates. They are often worse than shields and don't regenerate. |
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